Dog Chat

Please help if you can, and forgive typos and rambling - I've had a severe lack of sleep!

I have female chocolate labrador puppy called Tonks.  She will be 11 weeks old on this Tuesday coming and we've only hade her since the tuesday just gone.
Tuesday, wednesday and thursday nights she was fantastic.  I have put a bed for her in our utility room with a fluffy hot water bottle, cushion, ticking clock, chew toy, teddy, bowl of water and some newspaper on the floor by the garden door.  I even have the light on in the toilet next door to her so she's not in complete darkness.  Friday night she was still great; she whined briefly after I shut the door but stopped in less than a minute.

Last night Tonks was awful  :(  I did the usual putting her to bed routine (in the garden for a wee, then a treat for laying in her bed) and was pleased that she went to get in bed by herself.  I shut the door and went to bed, and this is when she started.  This was a while before midnight, but she went on for aaaages.  I think she stopped between about 1am and 2am-ish, but I can remember getting up at 2:30 to tell her to quiet down as she had got very loud again. 
The only reason I let it go on before was because my children were still sleeping and my neighbour is part deaf - I didn't want to 'reward' Tonnks with my appearing to her cries, but I can't let her cry all night because she will end up waking the neighbour!

When I got up at 2:30 I let her in the garden just incase.  She had done a wee on her paper, but nothing else - while out she did a poo (her stools are loose but I'll come to that yucky tale later) then I put her back to bed, and then she started howling again.  I stayed up so that  could tell her 'no' through the door when she started - I *know* this is not good practice but I was shattered and didn't know what else to do!  After a while it stopped, but probably as likely from her knowing I was downstairs as anything else.
I got up again at 6:30-ish because of lots of loud whining and let her out again (more poo and wee) and put her back to bed.  She wasn't too noisy right away this time, but I was up before 7:30 to tell her to quiet again and I sat in the kitchen trying to find dog advice online!  I didn't let her out at this point, but she must have known I was in the next room as I was moving about making a tea etc.

When I did let her out I ignored her and she was calm around me.  She was also very good when my children got up (normally she can be a bit scatty with them on meetings), I had told them to pretend she was invisible for a few minutes.

Now she is asleep, as good as gold - but why all the crying last night?  I expected it for the first few nights and was surprised not to get it then.  I didn't expect an all night long crying situation though! :( :'(

I've been trying to think of things that happened differently yesterday, but really can't come up with much.  She slept lots in the day (as usual) and though I didn't do our evening of 5-10 minutes training (only on come to call, sit, and a bit of lay down), I had worked on getting her to follow my childrens' commands earlier in the day, and yesterday evening I was working on her not chasing my cat when she came in.

Having Tonks in my room is not an option, neither is a crate.  I dont want to give her the run of the house when I'm not around to supervise, and I dont think it will help anyway.  My husband has never been 100% about getting a dog - he was dead set against it at first, but e understands how much I feel I need a K9 friend and is trying his hardest; he thinks she's cute but will end up hating her if he gets no sleep!
 What can I do?  Please give advice if you can.

ElaineXX

ps, at the moment she has a diet of chicken, rice and a handfull of purina one - I thought this was what she had at her first home but it turned out to be chicken and rice with beta puppy biscuits.  I want to get her on to Burns ASAP though because I have heard good things about it.

Hi again

How many times per day are you feeding Tonks? You say you are feeding Chicken & Rice. Is that homemade chicken and rice or a form of manufactured Complete/Tinned? If it is Manufactured who makes it?

From the sounds of it she is just being a normal 11 week old puppy who after nearly a week in her new home is feeling confident enough to start trying to set some rules of her own. I whine, You come running kind of thing.

At this age though it is advisable to let your puppy out every couple of hours or so to relieve themselves. Once she has done her business, set your alarm for say 2 hours time and completely ignore any of her whining until the alarm goes off to let you know she may need to go to the toilet again.

I can understand the noise and not wanting to wake anyone, but unfortunately this is one of the pit falls of owning a new puppy. Many have sleepless nights for a week or so until the puppy realises that her whining will get her no where and that she is much better off just getting her head down.


Others here will have better advice than me here though.

Good luck.

Hiya, thanks for the reply (me?  waiting on teh computer hitting refresh?  noooo ;D )

I am giving her chicken breasts that I grill with plain boiled rice, it's about cupfull 3 times a day.  This morning I actually left out the purina to see if that helps, do you think she will be ok on rice and chicken until I can get hold of some Burns to mix in?  She's only had a tiny handfull of the purina, but I guess it could be enough to uupsset her belly.

do you think this could be in part because she prefers to relieve herself outside now that she has seen the garden?  She used to be happy going on the paper indoors, but that was before she ventured out of rooms alone.

when you suggest the 2 hourly alarm, do you mean through the night?  I can't remember doing this with my other dogs, but then I dont remember them crying all night either!

Also, does anyone have any toilet training tips for the daytime?  for the past couple of days where it's been warm out we have had the garden door open and she's just gone out when she wants to relieve herself.  However I dont think this is going to be ideal, because surely she needs to learn to hold needing to go until set times eventually...

Oh so much to think of!  I think human babies are easier!

Exx

Well I am not sure your puppy will get the nutrition it needs from eating chicken and rice with the odd bit of complete. Sounds to be lacking in calcium which is very important for a puppie's growth. If I were to be feeding complete, Then I would feed the Complete (in your case purina) as the staple and then just add the odd bit of chicken and rice. At this stage I would also break the meals up into 4 meals per day, although I doubt this is affecting her behaviour at night.

If this food is new to the puppy then it is normal for her to have runny stools until she is used to the new food, which I found can take around a week or so. It could also be from her lacking calcium in her diet which helps firm stools, as stated above I do not think her current diet will provide the calcium she needs.

Yes I did mean setting the alarm through out the night. I never needed to do this with my dog either as she only whined the first night and hasn't really since. Then again she sleeps in my room, so probably feels secure.

Not every dog is the same and as much as the dog has to adapt to our lifestyles, we need a little adaptation ourselves in terms of how we can get each individual dog around to our way of thinking. If this means setting your alarm for every 2 - 3 hours to let the dog relieve it's self during the night then so be it.
If my understanding is correct, you may need to sacrifice a few weeks sleep, rather than going to her and telling her to be quiet all the time. Every time you do this you reinforce to the puppy that when she whines, she gets attention. No matter if that attention is negative, fact is she is no longer alone and that was her means to an end.

When you say you shut the door where the puppy sleeps does this mean the dog is enclosed in the utility room on her own? Maybe you could try a baby gate so she can see through the bars and not feel so isolated?

Finally have you had the Vet give her a once over since bringing her home? She may have been vet checked whilst at the breeders, but for peace of mind i'd have checked over by your own vet if you haven't already. That way at least any medical causes can be eliminated sooner rather than later.

Lots of good advice so far. I wanted to add my bit  :) We got a lab puppy recently, he is now 8 weeks old. When we first got him he was quiet as a mouse but as he settled in he found his voice and began whining/howling. Our routine was bed at 12am, up at 3.30am for pee/poop and up around 7 - 8 am. The first while i was knackered!! But after a few days and the addition of a crate he didnt poop at night. He began whining when we put him to bed, but we never ever got up to him as he had pooped and peed and only wanted out to mess around. They need to learn that night time is sleep time. When i get up during the night its right out to poop and pee, no play or interaction, only praise for pooping/peeing then right back into crate. A routine at night for getting up to her will help her realise that you will get up to let her relieve herself. Does she poop in her room? If you want her to toilet train, having a room where she is allowed to poop will make her think she can poop inside, also if she does this she will whine as she wont like poop in her space. Why cant you have a crate? They are really handy. Flynn only now whines for a few mins when we put him to bed then settles. During the day if we put him in he whines for ages but we are resisting going to see him. By having a couple of weeks constant whining, it will be better than a few months of whining as she wont have learned that whining wont get her anywhere.

She sounds lovely though :D It will be worth the hassle when she sleeps through. Any pics?

Hi Sundancer  a belated welcome to the forum.


When you refer to  her  "first home"   do you mean the breeder or that she was with another family before you??

have you tried giving her a feed before bed time?this helped when i had 9 puppies!!!i would feed them around 9 and give them milk....then keep them awake for the next hour....then outside to pee...then bed at 11 ish...worked for me as their belly's were full and their bladders empty!!

I think you answered your own question really.

When I first got Ben he would cry, scream, bark, wale, scratch at the door (and open it!), and be a general pest at night as soon as all was dark and quiet.

I ignored the behaviour from day one. It went on about 2 weeks, which I thought was a long time, but the first night he slept through without so much as a peep I knew I had done the right thing. Its the only way to learn that it acheives nothing!

Obviously you will need to get up a couple of times for wee breaks, but just go down, open the door to let her out, ignore her, let her wee and come back in and continue to ignore her and go back to bed.


It will stop, altho it must seem like it never will at the moment!

good luck and keep us up to date on progress :)

Hiya again people - thanks for all the replies  :)

OK, today has been a normal day for Tonks, only we were out for a few hours this afternoon - I dread to think how noisy she was while we were gone!
Tonight I have been practicing leaving her in the utility room alone for 5 minutes at a time.  I've done it 2 or 3 times with the door shut and the light on - she cried throughout :(  when I let her out I make sure all I do is open the back door to the garden and the door to let her in to the main house and I completely ignore her - she's calm on being let in actually.

Just now I gave it a go with a baby safety gate on the door instead of shutting it.  I dont think I'll be doing it again - she was just as bad but lying right at the gate whereas normally she's in or near her bed crying.  the gate also makes it much louder than a shut door!

Now that I have you guys for back up, I shall try harder to be strong and not shout at her in the night!  She shall get no attention from me, but I will set the alarm to let her out to relieve herself.

Catalyst - we had a crate with our last dog and so I know it just wont be practical for here - we really dont have the right space.  Besides, our utility room is tiny - about twice the size of the crate she would need, I'm happy going with this if possible.

Lassie - sorry i should have been more clear - i meant the breeder, I just dont like that term for some reason!  so impersonal lol!  I am her first owner unless you count her mummy ;D

I might try a later dinner - i guess with me going to bed late it means that she's up late and geting hungry...  It's just a battle of wills for now I suppose!  Hopefully my neighbour will understand, and at least my husband is on leave so doesn't have to get up for work this week.  He's not gonna like it though!

ElaineXX

elaine  LOL.  thats ok .

im sure he'll settle in soon its early days yet., especially if he came from being in a kennel.

IMo i wouldnt feed after 8 pm.

Sometimes crates just arnt practical for some people :) Our last feed for Flynn is at about 8.30 at the latest. Last night at 4am i had him out he peed but didnt poop. I stayed out with him for ages but he just didnt need. I expected him to go in his crate but he held on until 7.30! So they do evntually learn to hold on, or get bigger so can hold more.

my boy had a collapsable canvas crate for the night by my bed and never heard a peep out of him unless he needed the potty, it was ideal for the bedroom and for his potty training even though he never got into proper crate training afterwards the house is too small really for a proper crate.

Sorry if you've already answered this but why not crate?

I have a 10 week old golden retriever pup who's been in a crate since day one with us and never cried or barked or messed in it once.  He's only had half a dozen accidents inside in 2 weeks and thats usually when he's so knackered he gets confused where the back door is lol.

He sees the crate as his bedroom and when we go in the car he goes in the back in his crate.  I was amazed that he hasn't messed in it, especially as he's in there for 7 hours overnight.

During the day he pops in for a little nap and we leave the door to the crate open.  They are the best training tool ever.

To me that sounds as if she is practicing crying when you leave her. :-\


I have a 9 week old pup.  I wouldn't be able to leave her shut somewhere on her own and let her cry.  I know lots of people do and they eventually give up but I pefer to not even let them start.

Kat sleeps in a crate in the bedroom at night and is currently having a nap in another crate under my desk.

She goes into her crate when she is tired and ready to sleep and is taken out when she wakes and needs the toilet.  At night she will happily return to her crate and go back to sleep for a while.

Then if I do hear her screaming I will know that something really is wrong.

She also has a last meal about an hour before bedtime.

I am confident that as she gets older and more settled with us she will be happy to go in her crate or be left in the kitchen with the others just as they all have done but whilst she is still a baby I wouldn't do anything to cause her to become distressed.

I am in total agreement in this method Sarabe.

Some pups have to learn to be left alone during the day though and no matter what it will be a bit distressing for them. Sometimes Flynn is put in his crate during the day and will cry but i wont have him out until he stops, which is getting sooner and sooner. I dont like it but he is learning. He hasnt and wont loose confidence in me as i am always there when he stops whining. Having a crate in the livingroom isnt an option for some as we have no room.

I've never had problems with puppies crying at night because they sleep in the bedroom, simple as that lol. I feel its much like having a new baby, would you put your new baby straight in their own room and ignore them when they were crying?

Good point Lara's Yorkies. 


I agree they have to learn, but we can ease their distress now by using things like flower and gem essences.  Essences work directly on the emotions.  We now have better ways of helping to ease anxiety and distress that weren't available before.

There is no need for such separation anxiety or pining when these essences work wonders with this type of distress and take the edge off.

Absolutely.  Couldn't agree more.  There is more than one way to do it though.  ;)

Not that i would but there is a method called ferberising or something where you leave the babies to cry. As with training puppies some people do it, others dont.

Just googled furberizing.  ;D

It seems to have a few different interpretations but I gather the gist of it is pretty much what I am doing with my puppy.

Establishing routines, recognising when they are sleepy and comforting them when they are distressed.

There are many more conflicting views on whether you should leave babies crying than there are on puppies.  ;)

Obviously there are people who leave their babies to cry but I certainly woulden't. I've worked in nurseries and as a nanny and have never left a baby to cry, its not necessary. I use the same logic with puppies.

Hi everybody - I'm so sorry I didn't update you sooner, and wow, i appear to have sparked a small debate! ;D

After the 5 minute trial runs, and very late in to the night (I had unforseen issues that kept me up) i went to bed and left Tonks with the radio on a talk show and my t-shirt I had dug out of the wash basket for extra smelliness  lol! ;D  I dont know which worked but she was great.  Not a whine or a snuffle until 6:30 and at this point my two year old son ruined my plans by letteing her wonder around the house before I could get out of bed (my plan was to let her in teh garden then get back to bed!), but oh well, it just meant I had an early start to the day!

Keep your fingers crossed for us for tonight!

ElaineXX

They aren't new born when they come to your house, though.

When I brought mine home, she whined the first night for half an hour, the next night for fifteen & on the third night there was not a peep. It can be done, for those who do not like the idea of sharing their own quarters - why share one's own room when you wouldn't expect a dog to share it's (crate) quaters? Some people just don't like it, I personally am not fussed but my OH flat out refuses her in the room whatsoever. I find that if you teach your dog to be indepedent in the run up to a night alone helps immensely.

To be honest i dont know much about furberizing, hence my spelling lol, but i kinda thought it was something about letting babies cry when you know it is only because they want attention! As you say, and i have said there are many ways to train a pup. The way im doing it suits me well and Flynn seems happy. Im sure your dogs are happy with you.

Couldn't agree more. If a person chooses to have the crate in the kitchen, landing, lounge, hall or wherever then that's their business! There are ways of stopping the whining without resorting to letting the puppy get their own way. If there wasn't, then why do so many people manage it?

Babies cry because they need something - Feeding / New nappy etc.

Dogs and puppies cry because they are in an unfamiliar situation that they would rather not be in and want to be with thier owner.

I cant see how the two can be compared. Its like every time a Puppy / Child comparison comes up - 9/10 times they arent really comparable. IMO.

Babies cry when they just want a cuddle too. ;)

Babies cry when they want changing - puppies cry when they want to relieve themselves.
Babies cry when they want feeding - puppies cry when they want feeding.
Babies cry when they want comforting - puppies cry when they want comforting.

Dogs and puppies cry because they are in an unfamiliar situation that they would rather not be in and want to be with their owner.

Babies cry because they are in an unfamiliar situation that they would rather not be in and want to be with their loved ones.

Agreed. The timeline is usually way off. A young baby is not the same as an eight week old puppy. No way.

Completly agree with SB, and its not just newborns, they cry for these reasons up to the age of 2 if not longer.

Try putting a 2 year old in their cot, leave the room, shut the door behind you. They will cry their little eyes out for ages, sure if you leave them to it then eventually they will cry themselves to sleep, but is that really fair? All it takes is for you to stay with them, cuddle them and give them some comfort and they will fall asleep peacefully. Therefore I think in situations like these you can compare them to puppies.

You've had a lot of good advice, and I would just like to add this to it: turn the light OFF at night.

It's unlikely that she has been used to having a light on, and will likely sleep better without it. When the light is gone, everybody sleeps.

I actually agree with this! My OH left the light on by accident last night & the dog barked the house down until we came back to turn it off.

lol - thanks!  I just felt so sorry for her on her first night here that I went ott... it's an easy trap to fall in to!

I have a new pic of tonks today that I thought I would share;

(http://img107.imageshack.us/img107/9788/1114676325c8d6cb7bbcboy7.th.jpg) (http://img107.imageshack.us/my.php?image=1114676325c8d6cb7bbcboy7.jpg)

thanks again!  :)