Dog Advice & Discussion :: Dog Chat

I think we should bring back the dog license and training for the owners I think this would be a good idea to stop silly owners as well as silly breeders and if we had dog licenses we wouldnt have half as much problms as we have now and it will stop the big I am`s with there fashion victim ect Staffie ,Rotties ,GSD.
Let me know how you feel about this?

I think a combination of what you mentioned would work i.e. a mix between licence and mandatory training for new dog owners would be the way forward.

and some sort of exam

And it will be the responsible dog owners who license their dogs and take the exam.

The irresponsible ones that shouldn't be allowed within ten feet of a dog won't!

Who will administrate and police such a scheme?
What will be assessed?
Who will do the assessing?
Who will select the assessors?
Who will assess the assessors?

Should prospective owners have to sit the exam before taking on a dog?  If so, who's dog will they be practising on?
Or should they sit the exam after they've obtained a dog?  Then what happens if they fail?  Will the dog be taken away from them?  Will the dog be re-homed?  Will the dog be euthanised?

For those of you too young to remember, this country already abandoned the national dog licensing scheme back in 1987 when it was held by only about half the dog owners!

Licensing would  never work.   responsible people  would adhere to it .   who's gonna visit travellers sites. puppy farms to see if they have  them?  after all local councils cant even control puppy farmers.

I think it would work esp if you had to get your license and do a exam before even getting a dog/puppy and have to show the license and exam paper to the breeders, RSPCA or where ever you might be getting your dog from.

The puppy farmers wouldn't give two tosses if you had passed an exam or not as long as you had the dosh. In fact they would be in their element if there was an additional market for their wares, them that failed the exam or didn't want to take it. :roll:

Besides there are a lot of people like me whose dogs are gifted to them either by their original owners or by someone who rescued them from their original owners.

If that idea was to work there would have to be some control over breeding and I cannot see that ever happening whilst the goverment gives grants to Welsh farmers to diversify into puppy farming and commercial breeders are given the blessing of the local authorities. :sad:

If you bring in licensing and exams before you can get a puppy, will the breeder be expected to have passed exams?? and have the license? Who will pass the breeder fit to breed? you've only got to look at the amount of puppy farms around to know that licensing doesn't work! Where will the assessing start? The vast majority of dog owners are responsible and don't need to be assessed, these are the ones that will take exams and get licenses, the irresponsible will carry on without worrying about assessments or licenses, after all you need a driving license to drive a car, but does that stop some people?  I can't see a solution to the situation because you'll always have those that won't care, they don't care about the dogs. Me I'll be honest I would resent being told I had to prove that I'm responsible enough to own a dog, having had dogs in my life for well over forty years. Going back to when we had dog licenses a week before they were abolished, my one dogs license ran out, I went to renew it and was told "is it worth it after all this time next week you won't need one" I pointed out that for that one week he needed a license, how many others would have done that? The responsible yes but the irresponsible hadn't got a license in the first place!

The thing is, you'd be surprised at how many 'normal' dog owners simply don't know what a puppy farm is and wouldn't even know if they were buying from own. Having these people already passed a test, they would know and would be able to spot and avoid one. Of course no scheme is ever without it's problems but doing nothing at all is not the best option here. If we don't, lobbyist types will and they will go after breeds because that is the easiest target to achieve.

I know that Ryan. Loads of people that attend our puppy training have bought from a puppy farmer. There are 'undreds of them around here in all shapes and guises. There is the 'farmer' that breeds collies, he's a farmer not a puppy farmer everyone is at pains to tell us yet he has flooded this area with working sheepdogs that really shouldn't be in pet homes.

Then there are three different 'rescues' who oddly enough only ever rescue puppies from being drowned or shot.

Then we have the commercial breeder that I have mentioned before who breeds Dogue de Bordeaux, Rottweillers, Rodesian Ridgebacks, Staffs, Mastiffs, Labradors, Shihtzus, Lhasas and any cross of them. He doesn't even know the difference between a Shih Tzu and a Lhasa Apso and frequently sells one as the other.

I agree something has to be done and no one would be happier than me if idiots weren't allowed to own dogs, I just can't see how it would work without severely penalising the genuine dog people unless something was done about the overbreeding of dogs first.

Are puppy farms an increasing problem in your area or is it levelling out? I hear different stories from over the UK, some areas seem to have a persistent problem and other areas appear to be getting on top of them

I know in the Brighton area, it is getting a lot worse. I even wrote to a few of the freeads, asking how they check that these are not farmers..they said they have a landline number  :shock: The westies here dont look like westies, the labs look like aliens (dont even have labrador grin..if that makes sense?)

Certainly have one round here . his advert on freeads is quite convincing, until you read about how his pups have  very bad hips. He was fined by one local council so moved 15 miles to another area. Still selling crippled pups despite  people sending proof to standards officers and local councils.

The poor dogs. I was shocked that the editor of one of the freeads here pretty much didnt give a damn

This is all part of the problem. I suppose the job is to educate would-be dog owners to understand what a puppy farm is and to deny people involved in puppy farming the oxygen of publicity. It is achievable.

Maybe someone somewhere could put together a really good information pack, and have a national newspaper publish it, have a few big supermarkets onside, go into schools and some other biggy...bit off the wall I know... :roll:

I do believe that it's an increasing problem.

Another popular way for puppy farmers to sell their pups is to place a litter in a private house, (I assume they get a commission). They would either have a bitch of that breed there which a naive person wouldn't realise was not the dam or more likely in the case of a collie or a gundog they would be told that the mother was out working. Or they are selling the pups for their brother, sister, mother, father or whatever who is in hospital, got a broken leg, having a baby, got the flu.

Recently two Springer Spaniel owners met each other here at a socialising session. They got talking and it turned out that they had got their pups from the same 'breeder'. Both had the same fictitious date of birth and they were amazed at how one brother could be twice the size of the other and that one had a docked tail and the other didn't. :roll: They both assumed their pups to be 11 weeks old and had had them for 3 weeks. It was clear that one of them was only about 8 weeks old, 9 weeks max so they had got him at 5 - 6 weeks (and no the vet hadn't picked up on it) and the other was nearer 15 weeks.

 :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :evil: :twisted:

i cant believe that people can still be so ignorant about buying a pup.

Shocking really

I did not know about this. I am going to let our managing editor know about this as I feel it worthy of reporting. We (K9 Media) made a complaint to the Dogs Trust and Pet Advertising Advisory committee about what we felt were double standards in allowing puppy farms to be publicised. I include it below to give a gist of what we were moaning about. Apologies for it being so massive but it is relevant to what is being discussed here
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Dear EDITED,

Thank you for the email and puppy farm letter.

As the editor of K9 Magazine and as a person who has worked exclusively
within the dog world in a hands-on capacity since leaving school, I am
all too aware of the problems that are perpetuated by the abundance of
puppy farming and dog dealers in the UK.

It has always been a personal belief of mine that reducing the number of
puppy farmers and dog dealers can only be achieved by cutting off their
oxygen of publicity - in other words - by giving puppy farmers/dealers
nowhere to advertise or promote their wares, they will have little
motivation to continue their trade.

With this in mind, our company (K9 Media Ltd) established
our own charter for ethical dog breeding back in 1999 and any breeder
who wishes to advertise within any of our publications must agree and
conform to this charter which we believe was one of the forerunners in
the campaign to deny puppy farmers/dealers the opportunity to advertise.


To further enhance our message of encouraging responsible ownership, we
even take the step of completely shutting down our website
www.breederdirectory.co.uk for the entire month of December every year
in an effort to stop people attempting to acquire puppies at Christmas
time - this is despite the fact that we only work with ethically sound
breeders, who would not sell a puppy at this time anyway but it is a
move which both the breeders who use the site and people who visit
applaud and our decision is more based on the symbolic message this
action conveys. Of course, we lose out financially for a whole month by
not taking advertising but I think this is where the lines are blurred
with other publishers.

Myself and two colleagues actually had a meeting last year with EDITED
 and outlined our beliefs that denying puppy farmers/dealers the
opportunity to advertise was the absolute key to hurting their
'industry' along with an educational drive advising puppy purchasers of
what to look for when looking for a dog. We have and will continue to
promote this message very seriously

I do have a serious grievance though which I would like to air.

When we published the recent article sent to us by The Dogs Trust "Puppy
Farming Uncovered by Dogs Trust and BBC" -
http://www.k9magazine.com/viewarticle.php?sid=15&&vid=0&npage=&aid=794 -
in the original release it gave praise to The Pet Advertising Advisory
Group and more specifically to "advertising publications such as Loot,
Yellow Pages and Exchange & Mart" in applying tougher guidelines on
taking advertising from breeders or puppy sellers.

The first thing I did when I received the release was visit
www.petownersonline.com (Exchange & Mart's dedicated pet website).

The reason I went there straight away was because I remember very
clearly when I saw the site for the first time at last year's Crufts,
they had advertising on the site from breeders (dealers) whom we (K9
Media / BreederDirectory.co.uk ) would never have taken money from and
whose adverts would never have met the terms of our ethical breeding
charter.

Having now seen the company mentioned in positive terms in an article
about puppy farming, I decided to have a look and see if the same or
similar advertising was still being accepted.

My first search was for 'Labradors' - and the first advert displayed is
this:

EAST LONDON PUPPIES, All our kennels are veterinarily approved &
supervised. Excellent before & after sales care given. Vaccinated,
microchipped (pet logged registered), wormer & care package all included
in the price with written health care sheets. Miniature dachshund, Toy
Poodles, Labradors....

Then I performed a search for 'Westies' - 2 results were returned

ADORABLE WESTIES, MINIATURE SCHNAUZERS *Daschunds, Pug crosses,
Springers, Yorkie Crosses, ex cellent Licenced kennels,
www.pupsrus.co.uk 01239 841609/644 T

And

ATTENTION LOOK NO FURTHER *Alsatians, Akita's, Bassets, Beagles,
Bichons, Border Collies, Boxers, Cavaliers, Chihuahua's, Chows, Cockers,
Dobermans, Jacks, Labradors, Pugs, Pomeranian, Retrievers, Rottweilers,
Staffs, Shih-Tzus, Springers, Weimaraners, Whippets, Westies, Yorkies,
Crossbreeds....

(NOTE - No self-respecting breeder of German Shepherds would refer to
them as 'Alsatians')

Now I appreciate the distinction between a puppy farmer and a puppy
dealer is different but as I am sure you are aware, dealers very often
purchase from puppy farmers and the two very much go hand-in-glove, this
is why I find it incredibly hard to take that advertising such as this,
on a site which proudly displays its affiliation with The Pet
Advertising Advisory Group and is also noted is positive terms in
editorial about The Dogs Trust's (commendable) drive to stamp out puppy
farming, is commonplace.

I found these ads with just two searches, both of which are for popular
breeds and therefore breeds which are also popular with puppy
farmers/dealers (I refer to them in the same vein as in nearly all
cases, they operate in tandem)

I found similar advertising on Yell.com - see below:

J.W Raymond
Classification: Dog Breeders
• BREEDERS OF QUALITY PUPPIES • CAVALIER KING CHARLES SPANIELS •
LABRADORS -YELLOW/BLK & CHOC • BORDER & CAIRN TERRIERS • STAFFORDSHIRE
BULL TERRIERS • FULLY LICENSED & INSURED

And again on Loot.com - see below:

HOT DOG KENNELS We have available: Basset Hounds £475, Basset Crosses
£250, Labs £300, Retrievers £325, Bichon Frise £375, Boxers £425, G.S.D
£275, Cockers £300, Westies £335, Shih Tzus £325, Jack Russells £175,
Rottweilers £375, Poms £325, Staffs £360, Cavaliers £350, Yorkies £325.
All wormed w/ first injection & puppy pack. Call 01268 761786 / 07863
145389 More >>

I have attached a word document with screen grabs of these ads and I
would also point out that I did not have to look hard to find these
adverts at all and I stopped after just a couple of searches rather than
find similar ads to simply emphasise my point.

As you are aware, puppy farmers/dealers earn their living through
selling lots of pups all year round and they are therefore very adept at
using advertising to ensure they have a high degree of visibility all of
the time whether they even have puppies available or not.

The drive to cut down on the number of unwanted dogs and reduce the
weight of dogs that end up in the rescue system of Great Britain is
something very important to me personally and that is echoed by our
company.

I believe that unscrupulous breeders/farmers/dealers who are involved in
the sale of dogs for nothing more than commercial gain is one of if not
THE largest contributing factors to this problem.

With this in mind none of the adverts I have mentioned in this email or
shown in the attached document would have been accepted by us - in fact
- despite the obvious difference in financial capabilities between our
company and Exchange and Mart, Yell and Loot, we turn down advertising
of this nature on a weekly basis as it does not comply with our charter
for ethical dog breeding - this is also in spite of the fact that our
business makes its living from advertising just the same as the
companies mentioned above and we are not endorsed by or endorsers of The
Pet Advertising Advisory Group .

I do hope you can see why I felt the need to write to you with my
concerns as I share the same desire as Dogs Trust to stamp down on puppy
farms and dealers and equally I believe that cutting their route to
market by denying them the opportunity to advertise is the key to
success.

It is, in my opinion, a mockery for companies who proudly display their
affiliation with The Pet Advertising Advisory Group to then accept
advertising which is clearly not from specialist breeders. Equally I
believe it sends out the wrong message to (the millions) of people who
use these company's publications to locate breeders, who may feel an
enhanced degree of safety in the knowledge that they are only displaying
advertising from ethical, dedicated dog breeders due to an affiliation
with The Pet Advertising Advisory Group.

May I finish by stressing that none of what I have written is aimed as
criticism at Dogs Trust, your cause is incredibly worthwhile and one
which we have been championing for the past few years, I simply felt the
need to alert you to what I perceive to be a contradiction between
perceived praise for companies who are using The Pet Advertising
Advisory Group whilst still accepting advertising which we believe to be
detrimental to the overall campaign to stamp out puppy farming.

Kind Regards
Ryan O'Meara

Editor in Chief
K9 Magazine

week in week out the same puppy farmers advertises in our freeads as reputable. guaranteed by vets LOL.

same here. pictures of cute puppies hundreds of breeds same number same blurb

The PAC supports licensed dealers. Tougher guidelines for advertising in Exchange and Mart. Yeah right. :roll:  I am shocked that the Dog's Trust are promoting them.

What was their response Ryan? 

Well done on you stance on advertising from breeders.

That is shocking

Unfortunately whilst I am the copyright owner of the letter I wrote to them and am able to publish it here, their response is protected by their copyright but I can say there is no longer any pet website from Exchange and Mart and I think the Dogs Trust have actually had a re-think about promoting people who are happy to simply say they are part of some charter but not actually back it up with any action so changes have happened for the better since I wrote that letter. Sadly, even if all the big guys did take a more ethical stance, someone would come in and offer an outlet to puppy farmers so widespread education, as has been pointed out in this thread, is the real key.

Well that's good, anyway.

I just find it odd that people can go to these places, and not think thats having so many puppies in one place isnt wrong!
Last year I looked into getting a beagle, and the few breeders I found were literally overrun with Pups..I walked away..

I might do a poll of all our puppy owners.

We do have a question on the enrolment form about where they got puppy from. Private home, breeder, rescue but I could maybe do a quick survey to see how many of them are aware of puppy farms and dealers. That would be interesting.

i was just saying about this in the general dogchat.
i think after recent events, it should be made law that you have to have a licence if you want to own a fighting dogbreed.
and the potential owner should be thouroghley tested, if he/she is stable enough, to own such a dog.

This morning a friend and fellow collie owner was talking to her sister on the phone. Her sister told her of a friend that had an 8 week old Border Collie that they were at the end of their tether with already!!!! When my friend's sister asked where they got the pup from they said it was from a farm in Newbury. When asked if they met the Mum they replied that, no unfortunately they didn't because both the Mum and Dad of the puppies were in Wales, working. :roll:

I believe she then asked them if they were really that stoopid to believe that. :neutral:

OMG!  :shock: :shock: :shock:

OMG :mad: How silly can some people be :mad: This just makes me so mad :-x The thing that gets me i thought that most would wont to see the puppies with the mum but by the sounds of it the people that have bought this pup dont know very much about dogs this is why we need to have a Dog License and do some sort of training before we can even buy a dog.

But then what do you class as a fighting dog breed i dont think you can single them out, most of the problems i have come across with dog owners is the family labrador.

Dogs with hunting, guarding or herding instincts can be just as likely to upset or hurt as supposed fighting dogs, Labs and retrievers can reach a good weight and have some power, they may not have the bite radius to do the damage of a rottie but i do not see a difference.

The test should be for all people including the ones that dont socialise their jacks or chis cos they are only little and what harm can they really do?

If a person wants to own a dog they should take responsibility no matter what the breed and sit a test.

Again some breeders and scum like people are going to get away with things and flaunt the law but what do you do?

I would like to see more dog wardens even if it was as a special volunteer who recieved training and them be in local parks or patrolling the beach then if a dog is out of control points can go on a licence dependant on offence and owners recieve a warning or a fine at the end of the day unless it hits someons civil liberties or wallets things are not going to change.

I agree with you on this.
We need to do something about it as its just gonna get out of hand even more.

This puppy, now aged 10 weeks, has today joined the ranks of the many homeless dogs in this country. They want rid because he is turning the garden into a mud bath and they have to leave him out there otherwise he pees indoors. :-(

That's deplorable, i dont know any dog owner at the moment who does not have a mud patch as a garden.

Too many people buying pups on a whim for cuteness factor and not giving it the proper consideration for the hard work it is

I agree with you TWS too many people are buying puppies for the cuteness factor and not thinking head to all the hard work that has to be put into the pups whole life.

CS - I completely agree with you. Unfortunatly it seems as though people (especially first time dog owners) do not know what to watch out for when buying a puppy. I think that until you've had a dog and joined the 'doggy world', these problems and issues are probably unheard of - this does not mean these people will not be brilliant dog owners, just they are a bit ignorant in the beginning. Personally I would never buy a puppy (I'd rather rehome a dog), but if i'd never had dogs before and decided to go out and buy one i'm not sure I would instinctivly know what to look out for. I would probably do research before hand but not everyone does this either.

I agree that I good move might be to have some sort of flyer/poster telling you what to look out for when buying a puppy and maybe put them on buses - they need to be somewhere where people will take the time to read them.

Hi All,

1. I don't know what the legal position of this would be, or if it would even be workable, but perhaps it would be an idea to set up a website/forum so that people in the know can log onto it and add details of people/places/phone numbers of those who are known puppy farmers?

At least then there would be a central place where it may be a bit easier for novice dog owners to check whether the place they're thinking of going to get their new puppy is reputable (since so many people seem to be unaware of the signs of a bad breeder).

If this isn't possible or workable, what about setting up some sort of group/funding so that adverts could be placed in local newspapers/national nespapers/magazines/websites listing what to be on the look out for when buying a puppy? This way it's not naming individuals, but is at least making people aware of what they should be on the look out for when purchasing. As mentioned by someone before, I think lots of people, even caring and fairly knowledgeable people who are dog mad, have no idea of the issues of puppy farming until they really do some research - it's just not a well known enough issue.

3.Or, perhaps amongst the members on this forum, we could get an accurate idea of the specific locations of some puppy farms, and members in those areas be on the look out for adverts (and consider taking out their own 'antipuppy farm' advert anonymously along side them - I for one woudln't mind spending my own money to place an advert if was even to help one person be put off!), sticking notices up, making loud and regular noises to their local council).

As i said before, i don't know if these ideas are silly or not, as i'm not as much in the know as some of you are who work in the industry etc, but, you don't know unless you try!

Carol.

There is this website Carol http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/hopeuk/ (http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/hopeuk/) and many others too I'm sure.

My Hovis's story is on there, (click on saved).


Even it it was possible that would just give them free advertising. For every person who wouldn't want to buy from a puppy farm there would be another who'd be happy to.

A very old friend of mine who have I haven't seen for years, but we met through dogs originally, bought a puppy from a puppy farm last year. I really berated her for it.  Last week someone called wanting puppy training, recommended by my old friend, but, wait for it, has bought a puppy from the same puppy farm, also recommended by her. I despair!!!! :roll:

Thanks for giving me details of the website...Hovis was lucky in the end to end up with you.

I guess I was being naiive - you're right, it is free advertising for them I suppose. :cry:.Just hate the thought of it, and when I feel bad about something, i always try to think of constructive ideas instead of just moaning about it, but i'm sure that many many people before me have thought of and tried lots of options...it's a horrible situation.

I don't envy the situation you had with your friend either - impossible.

Trouble is people want what they want when they want it.
They decide they want a dog and that they want it right now. They are not prepared to wait or do enough research, they buy with their eyes and are not prepared to pay good breeders prices or wait for a litter and book a pup.

I have to say that I have three clients with pups from a particular puppy dealer in this area and I also have three clients who bought from reputable breeders, booked pups and waited for them to be born. Certainly in these particular cases you get what you pay for...not only do the breeders pups LOOK like a bit of quality but they are also in better "nick" more stable in temperament and have settled much more readily into their new homes.

Have to say that it is the can't wait mentality of today that is contributing to this.
Also, without exception, every pup owner I work with says to me that they didn't realise there was alot more to owning a dog than they had first thought.

I wonder wether there could be some form of license that could be issued so that people were licensed to own only certain breeds...kinda breed specific tests.....but I don't think there is enough political kudos in this for a government...not a good vote winner and implementing it financially would be expensive.

Yesterday I spoke to two friends, one who is longterm trustee of a GSD rescue and the other is co-ordinator of the Dobe rescue who Iam fostering this Dobe for. Both these people are close to despair with the list of dogs backed up waiting to come in IT HAS NEVER BEEN SO BAD. So many Dobies adn GSDs with nowhere to go and these are just regional rescues.
A few years ago (not many) the two pups I have here in foster would have been snapped up quite quickly...now we can't even place these two problem free babies!
How much wors is it going to get? I DREAD TO THINK :oops:

we have a couple of "farms" around here and none of the dogs look like they should. Westies look awful, labs have shocking temperments, and the supposedly sturdy breeds  like collies are filling our local vets.
I help three rescues when I can, and they are sooo full, they can hardly move, and we are getting to the stage where we are having to refuse non urgent cases.
I get so angry when I flick through the free ads and there are idiots crossing breeds. Akita x gsd husky x akita collie x lab. Why? They may look cute, but the average person cannot control the breeds on their own, mix them and you have one hell of a problem. Then of course they are usually cheap, the seller doesnt ask questions, and they come vaccinated.

It does feel quite desperate right now!

Im afraid to say it, but I have had this conversation so many times with different  people about how we solve the "not enough homes/kennel space/ money" and all we could come up with was, either no one breeds any dog for 10 years, or all dogs that are unlikely to be rehomed in 3 months is PTS. It is horrible, I know of a rottie that I would love to have, but she cant live with small furries or children...she has been in care since 2005!

Awww bless her.. my heart bleeds when i hear this.. :cry:
This is why we need to sort ourselfs out in a big way or god knows what will happen to all our wonderful dogs of the world.. :???: