Dog Advice & Discussion :: Dog Chat

Hi im not very clued up with this electric collar business....Are they illegel?...Because today for the first time ever i saw one on a dob. :sad:

I was up at my friends yard collecting another friends dogs when i saw it. The only way i noticed it really was because the dob had 2 collars on, thats when i realised. The owner was on her horse and the dob was running along beside her. I just think WHY do people have to do that to there so called beloved dogs...I understand its ment to be for there own saftey but hey ive never used them and my dogs have been fine. Nobody would think of puting it around a childs neck, would they....Ohh it make me so Angry! :evil:

I do need to know some facts though to maybe put my mind to rest a bit. How much zapping power do these things give out? Is it worked with a remote? Do they have settings?  And why if are they not banned (if not already)? :-x

 Hi Max  there are many lengthy posts on here about this subject .   :)


have a look back and you'll see them.   ;-)

besides im running out of wine! :wink:

Read the one nannypet put up :oops: I personally think people could live without them.

Denis
Its nice to know you’ve seen one for the first time, as the owner was on a horse and the dog moving how do you know if it was an e-collar, a spray collar or beeper collar if you have never seen one before.



Denis
Yes, I gathered you have not used one as your first post said you have only just seen one on a moving dog, one, you can be fairly sure the woman on the horse has had dogs before and never used one before, there are quite a few of us who have adavanced to modern training with e-collars, but, obviously, not everybody has caught up/updated themselves with modern advanced training methods, yet.

I am little surprised with you, you seem to understand they are for dogs safety and yet somehow you seem against increased safety, are you aware 100.000 lost dogs were PTS last year? and yet you seem to think increased safety is undesirable.


Denis
I hope not, children are forced sit in desks and learn maths for 6 hours a day, I hope they don’t make dogs do that either, it would not be safe expecting a dog to stand at a bus stop waiting to go and sit at a desk all day and be punished by being made to sit upright and work out mathematics, instead of running round the fields barefoot on a winters day, wishful thinking really, comparing kids to dogs, I have had and trained dogs a long long time and the dogs I find which have the lowest quality of life are those dogs whose owners see them as little human babies.

MadMax-
Ohh it make me so Angry! 

Denis
Well, personally I have never been interested in kids but I have nothing against them. I suppose it would make me a little angry if I saw them being made to go naked and poop in the gutter or stick their heads in rabbit holes and made to dig rabbits out with their hands, let alone be told they are “good boys/girls” because they sat naked with their cold bums a cold pavement, I suppose I'de be angry if I saw naked kids tied up with a noose around their necks outside the paper shop and then made to carry the paper home, in their mouth, naked and on their hands and knees.



Denis
I don’t see any reason why you should want to put your mind at rest or even bother about finding out about them, the woman on the horse probably did not worry that you had a noose rope (collar and lead) with you to put round your dogs neck, why should the sight of something bother you? Especially when you don’t know what the item it is, if you do want to know then go and do a course on e-collars, if someone will accept you.

On the other hand if you do want to worry then go ahead and worry away, tell you what, it will bring piece of mind if you sign two petitions to ban them, one of them has been around for 6 years and only has only about 1400 sigs, thats in dire need of support, the other is new and finishes in July, so you can help the people who need sigs, links at bottom.



Around a 4V battery – they work at the threshold of sensation which varies from dog to dog and depends on the drive level of the dog and sensory narrowing relevant to drive.


Denis
There have already been consultations on them by DEFRA during the formulation of the new animal welfare act, DEFRA know what they are, no government is going to stop progress and certainly on the grounds “I saw one, I don’t know what it was so ban it”, the electorate assumes any government works from an intellectual level, not a crank level, “I saw a woman on horse with might have been an e-collar on her dog, ban them” , sort of very progressive thinking, "It's electric lets ban it"  :lol: :lol: :lol:. ...you don't happen to be member of the Taliband do you?

Here you are, these will make you happy and these people really do need signatures,hundreds of thousands of them so your little bit will help them.

Minority groups seek help-lots of it.
http://www.petfriendlyworld.com/chat/index.php?topic=7038.0

http://www.petitiononline.com/mod_perl/signed.cgi?collars&1


..........I mean the duh thinking :P :P :P :P :P.................."it's electric so lets ban ourseleves from learning about it before we know what it is"........... :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:......geeze....what are they truning of schools these days.

Denis
Thats nothing more than a copy and past from somewhere, if you knew even the slightest thing about e-collars you'de know that.


Not sure why you said that, you dont know what they are, your not sure if the one you saw on the dog was a spray, an audio or an e-collar, if it was an e-collar you know nothing about them....so how are you in any position to think what other people can and cannot do?

Oh look , someone is tired .

Me 2.

You run out of Horlicks Denis? :lol: How much do you get through in a week? :wink:

I daren't drink horlickts I got at least another hour of things to do, that will put me out before then.

OMG here we go again!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! pulls up chair ,  pours  another glass/cup of what ever.............

GAME ON  :D :D :D :D :D :D

 :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

Another "Eureka!" thread
 :razz: :razz: :razz: :razz: :razz:

Now now Denis, twisting and misleading again, the 100,000 dogs pts last year were not pts because they didn't wear e collars.

Unfortunately it is a bit early to go and get another bottle of elderberry wine will have a coffee instead :D

i personally feel that they should be banned, as i find them cruel, and i wouldnt put one on my neck and there for would not put one on my dog i would prefer to just put some extra time in on training my dog.


xxxxxx

Hey...Hold on just for one minute Denis..... Come down from your high horse.....

Since you want to quote me on EVERYTHING ive said....Here goes....

Denis
Well they  certainly need your support – go to it, here thay are, the animals in mind petition has been up for at least 6 years and all its got is around 1,500 & odd, give your weight Merrow, these minorities always need people like you.
xxxxxxxxxxx

Minorties seek support
http://www.petfriendlyworld.com/chat/index.php?topic=7038.0

Animals in Mind
http://www.petitiononline.com/mod_perl/signed.cgi?collars&1

Denis
I had fun on that one actually, I used it as an excuse to avoid doing some late night things – regretted it this morning though.

I think I need some of Lassie's wine - even though its early.

Sad Sad Man.........

Oh and before i go ......I havent yet went to advanced training which deals in they collars...Thank goodness as all my positive training would be out the window. I dont want to associate my dogs commands to pain!! :sad:

lol iv all ready signed them they have been posted on another forum i use :). iv seen a film on u tube with a lad with an e collar on and i gotta say it did look like it was causing him alot of pain.

xxxx

Just been looking at the you tube thing and i totaly agree with you...Ouch poor dogs!

Denis didn't say that they were.  But MANY, perhaps most of them were PTS for behavioral problems that their trainers couldn't fix.  I have no doubt that many of them could have been saved with an Ecollar. 

Wondering what your experience with an Ecollar is?  I'd bet that you've never even seen one, never felt the stim from one and have never seen one used properly.  So how is it that you can say that you "find them cruel?" 


Everyone of my private clients and many people at my seminars have felt the stim.  Almost universally they describe it as a "buzz" or a "tingle."  It's not what you imagine. 


You do many things to your dog that you wouldn't do, including parading him naked in public and having him do his business in the park.  You probably don't eat his food either.  Such comments as yours are almost always inappropriate when you put them in the proper perspective. 


If time was the only thing lacking in other methods than Ecollars wouldn't exist.  They often work when other methods fail completely. 

Then the Ecollar is the perfect tool for you.  It uses minor discomfort, not pain. 

Try watching the video again and notice that at the first levels he's NOT in pain at all.  It's only later, when he keeps turning it up, that he feels pain.  Since the dog's owner is in charge of the stim level, all that's necessary is that he NOT turn it up.  How is it that you missed that little point? 

bloomin heck now we have LOU NOW loL   . WHERE U BEEN ????????


SEDDIE ALWAYS WELCOME  TO THE WINE :lol:

SEE MENTION THE  "E" WORD AND THEY ALL COME OUT THE WOODWORK

Denis
That’s what I like to see someone at the hub of all the action.

Be careful though, Gill White, owner of takingthelead forums, sent one of her puppets out to do the same – they got themselves banned from posting chamdpogs forums for putting the petition on and the petition link was deleted, not to keen on disruptive minorities there, it cost them to much in the past  :lol: :lol: .

Never mind, you keep trying merrow, you could be the intrepid hero of their day, these are your finest hours.

Denis
 :oops: :oops:….well, I am not sure how or if I should respond to that, I mean this is a dog forum now you have split the topic into sado masochism soft P film…maybe you could pass some links of them using dominatrix dog collars, leads, choke chains, harnesses and haltires, which they also use....hey why not do a video of your little group prancing round 'doing your own thing' in dog gear so those like 'that stuff' can watch you.

…..still if sado dominatrix is your taste then you just go for it and 'those kind’ of movies…have fun…think Ill stick with The Wind in the Willows.

Watching this thread (and others) and waiting for someone to write something that deserved a reasonable response.  


Yep.  You write that is if there's something wrong with it.  There's not.  It's obvious that many of you folks still don't know anything about Ecollars.  

Denis
Well if you do I recommend the Tri Tronics Pro 500, absolutely excellent collar and with the $ at an all time low you should get one for not much more then £250.


Denis
I am not sure what kind of training you are talking about, what I am talking about is environmental, safety and legal requirement off lead obedience training, not anything else.

“Positive Training” is not a method of training it is a commercial product – the term is used to make something sound good and the buyer (pet dog owner) ‘feels’ they have something good, which is why the terminology you have used means absolutely nothing.

 If you wish to clarify the ‘positive’ thing then I will comment, it sounds like you are repeating something someone has told you – I am I correct in thinking that it is someone who you are paying money to for some reason who told you that you were doing “Positive training”? There are a lot of scams in the dog world and know quite a lot of them, that is a common one.

On the other hand if you’re using an e-collar there is no method training which has more ‘positive reinforcements’, the so called method known as ‘positive training’ has a 'negative punishment' as it’s base and no method to consistently apply a 'negative punishment', obviously if you have no method to apply the base of your theory then you have no method unless you use other operant parts, the term you used is a part of operant learning theory, or did they fail to explain that to you?


Denis
Good, when you get your new Tri Tronics Pro 500 just use it properly and you will not give your dogs pain – if you think the 500 is to much £ then get the next one down, the Sport Combo G3 around £150 – they are both expandable to 3 dogs so when you get your other dog you already equipped to deal with both little blighters.

Oh...before I go....stay away from those naughty boy videos  :oops:

They do now, I just told Mad Max both a manufacturers name AND 2 model names, now she knows that she knows more than in her 'previous' lifetime.
 

did i mention there was  NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Well at least we agree on one point.  LOL.

AND THANKS FOR THE MINUS REP POINT TOO

You're more disliked than Sarebe now :cry:

Hello Lou ,
Are you saying that you use the ECollar as a last resort? Or is it a training method you would consider from the outset ?
Jason .

No Lou, most of these dogs were pts because there isn't enough homes for them.  This happens every year and is not just last year.  Maybe if our Government managed to stop gossiping like old women and started to do what they are supposed to do, govern the country, there wouldn't be so many dogs bred every year to end up pts before they are a year old.  

My latest dog I fostered because there wasn't a rescue space available for her, she was 20 weeks old.  The week previously I transported a 6 week old pup to a rescue and safety, unfortunately she died, it was all too much for her and some of the pups coming into rescue are even younger.  Dogs are being abandoned left right and centre when they are no long puppies because nobody has bothered to even house train them.  

So many dogs are pts every year because puppy farms and back yard breeders are churning them out and people are buying them and not because they were not trained with an e collar.

Isn't that what you do Lou?

My dogs don't parade naked, they all have coats and I have pictures to prove it.   The either have blankets over them at night, or sleep inside a sleepingbag, that is their choice.   They don't toilet in the park either, we don't have one near me and they have a special place for this.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v312/Nethertumbleweed/Merlin3-2.jpg)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v312/Nethertumbleweed/WrappedupagainstthecoldMerlinJoe.jpg)

Denis
The figuers are put out by The Dogs Trust, who say they are lost dogs and exclude road deaths.


Denis
If you took the trouble to look back through the debates on e-collars during the consultation period 2004-6 you read Ben Bradshaw repeating MANY times DEFRA were not going to touch e-collars because they have saved countless thousands from PTS over this past 3 years – he has an abundance of letters to that effect.

I know the increase in average monthly sales of the top 5 importers/distributors and retailers which is now just over or just under the 300 units per month retail 'each' of those 5 and with steady consistent  yearly growth, that excludes wholesales and excludes othrer significant retail only outlets. Many of those dogs would be lost or PTS because of problem behaviour – Ben Bradshaw also as letters from pet owners to that effect.

Yes e-collars are at least part responsible for the successive falls in PTS dogs in this past 3 consecutive years, there is nothing new at all in the dog world which can account for those falls, only the e-collar is new. ALSO- e-collars are NOT just a training aid, they are a safety device, you don't need to use one for training but if you have one on a dog and it bolts and is heading into danger you can stop it - thats not its primary purpose it is a by product of the purpose and the only fail safe there is.

 

There never is once a discussion on e collars starts, it was better when we were talking about drinking wine, that Elderberry that Bill made in 1994 is delicious :lol:


 

Nobody said there was something wrong with it, it is just a statement that is true.



 No Lou, if the e collar was the perfect tool for us we would be using one but we are not, it is the perfect tool for you, we prefer better methods that work for us.



I don't have any experience of putting my hand in a fire either, but like the e collar, I prefer not to after seeing one used on a dog.


Isn't an e collar a commercial product?  You have been trying to promote these collars to sound good for several years to my knowlege but not had much success which makes what you are saying about them, mean absolutely nothing.

Lassie, take the minus points as a compliment, it means you have rattled someone's cage, well done  :lol:


Lou doesn't consider any other training Jason, all he does is use the e collar like Denis does.  Lou even puts it round the tummy of a Yorkie because they are too big to go round the neck.

Better for you maybe - some joker tried to get me on the Horlicks last night.

Don't you mean found dogs Denis, and if there were enough homes for them so many healthy dogs wouldn't have to be destroyed.


Read my post Denis and stop twisting it, I was talking about the overbreeding of dogs and not e collars.  I now bring out the violins when I see the word e collars on here because it is the same old stuff written over and over again so I get out my bottle of elderberry wine that Bill make in 1994, much more interesting.

I don't need an e collar to keep my dogs safe, I do that anyway and no, they are not kept on a lead just for this but those that can be let off the lead are in a place were there arn't any roads for them to run into.   My dogs all have a good recall anyway, so why should I need an e collar?   Before you go off in a tantrum, my dogs can be called off when in full flow after a rabbit, squirrel, etc. all done without an e collar including Joe, the dog it took me 4 years to find the key to him feeling safe to come back to me because of his previous owner beating him up.

You have said many times in the past that you wouldn't take on the dogs that are like mine, but never said why.

What is wrong with Horlicks, I love it but prefer wine. ;-)

I am off to watch the tv now, be back later maybe :D

Denis
Wrong – I use or have used, at some point, all the methods you use and many more you have never heard of, especially the psychological interactions, the e-collar is an addition, the first modern collar came off the production line in Tucson Az in Sept 1998, I had one here in Nov 1998.

The only realistic thing you can say about e-collars is that you have never bothered learning anything about them. Below, e-collars and remotes in their historical context.

Now then Denis - if you had taken that "joker's" advice - you have had no regrets this morning ;)

Just thought as it helps traffic wardens and nasty bus drivers to sleep.........................well..................just a thought :-? :-? :-?

How did head collars come into it (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v312/Nethertumbleweed/rofl.gif)

They are a remote device - all the things I put are remote device which predated the modern e-collar, all still have uses of some sort.

I use an Ecollar on just about every dog that I train.  It's certainly NOT just a tool of last resort. 

I have never seen or heard of one using electric Denis, the ones I know about are all made of webbing.  I did try and get on on Gracie, but she could get it off quicker than I could get it on so I gave up (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v312/Nethertumbleweed/rofl.gif)

After I wrote: 
Emmy responded:
I won't bother to argue this point but you've avoided the point that MANY of them were PTS for behavioral problems.  It's only common sense that one of the reasons that they didn't have homes is because they were too hard to train, tore up the house, dog up the garden, barked incessantly, or had some other problem that couldn't be stopped. 


No different than here. 


I wouldn't count on that happening anytime soon.  Again, no different than here. 



Why do you suppose it is that the people who buy them don't keep them?  I'm sure that there is some "He's so cute (when he was a puppy) but grew too big" going on, but the obvious reason is that most of them develop behavioral problems that the owners or their trainers aren't capable of curing.  The easy-to-fix problems are cured and those dogs stay in their homes.  But the ones that they can't cure, wind up in rescue.  AGAIN, it's no different than here. 

I don't think you read the paper through properly - it is the about the technological development of most of the remote training aids from the beginning of dogs existence with man until the first modern e-collar in Sept 1998.

You win the award for begging the question and avoiding the topic.  You are the new champion, displacing someone who's no longer here.  ROFLMAO

Thankyou for your reply Lou .
I get the impression from your website that you are a dog handler or have been a dog handler for your state and Country .
My Father was also a dog handler for my country .
Is it normal practice in your Country to use the ECollar to train Government employed dogs and handlers ?
Jason .

After I wrote:  

Emmy responded:
Actually you're quite wrong.  The OP asked some interesting questions that Denis was handling quite well.  But you folks couldn't bear that; instead you took the thread off topic and played your silly little games.  That's a new tack for you.  Rather than try to argue rationally and reasonably or use emotional nonsense in an effort to try (and fail miserably, as always) to decry Ecollars, you went to what you thought was a cute discussion.  But alas, someone steered it back and now we're in the same old circle again.  You're writing nonsense and I'm punching holes right through it! 


Actually you are.  Ecollar sales are rising in the UK. 

After I asked Merrow what her experience with the Ecollar was:

Emmy responded
Interesting that the analogy that you chose was "putting (your) hand into a fire"  ROFL.  Typical of your attempts to inject emotionalism into this discussion.  Nonetheless, my question was directed at Merrow specifically.  I'd suppose that she's never even seen an Ecollar, yet she writes that she "find(s) them cruel."  I wonder how someone can make such a comment based on a vacuum of experience. 

But even given your experience of having "seen one used on a dog" means little.  It's obvious from your comment that it wasn't being used as I advocate.  When I use the tool, for example at a seminar, in front of dozens of people, they can't tell when I'm pressing the button.  You've seen the tool MISUSED and to base your opinion on that is foolish. 


In reality there have been at least half a dozen people from this list who have contacted me privately and have started using Ecollars in the UK.  Even if there was only one, it would mean that someone had learned something. 


Between us Denis and I have 29.  We must have REALLY rattled some cages.  ROFL. 

After Jason asked
Emmy decided to answer for me. 
I'd appreciate it Emmy if you're going to respond for me that you at least tell the truth.  What you've written is a complete lie!  I've used nearly every method and tool that exists in dog training.  I still use them, when appropriate.  I taught my patrol dog to bark on command with so-called positive methods. 


Denis too uses other methods and tools.  Please stop lying Emmy. 


Typical of someone who knows nothing about Ecollars to think that there's something wrong in this.  There's nothing magic about a dog's neck, in fact many of you use harnesses that go around the dog's chest AND neck.  Many of you use head harnesses of one type or another that go around his entire head.  All that happens with dogs that have the Ecollar on their tummy is that they feel the stim at a lower level, so that's what's used. 

When you folks bring up something new then Denis and I will have new responses for you. But you folks don't.  You repeat the same old nonsense over and over.  Since we're talking about facts of course the responses are the same. 

You're the ones who are being redundant, we're merely being responsive. 



Hmmm who does this sound like?  ROFLMAO. 


I'm quite sure Emmy that your dogs are perfect. I'm sure that they never disobey and never do anything wrong.  But the rest of the forum doesn't have dogs as perfect as yours.  Take a look at the last weeks posts and you'll see that. 


Here's some more redundancy.  No one needs an Ecollar.  But they're here now and it's foolish to ignore that fact.  Especially when they can so easily be used to get results without causing dogs any pain at all. 

(Emphasis added.)

You could have gotten the recall in less than two or three weeks using an Ecollar and my methods. 

I was a handler for my police department.  It was a medium sized police agency surrounded on three sides by the city of Los Angeles and on the fourth side by another city that you've probably never heard of.  Unless you've been here it's a bit difficult to understand the geography and the political designations of areas.  It's as if London was broken down into individual cities, each with it's own government and fire and police services.  Mayfair would be independent of London, a separate and complete entity.  But unless you saw a sign designating it as a separate city, you'd never know that it was.  The buildings run right into one another and sometime the division between cities is the centerline of a street or a curbline. 



In this part of the US (southern California) many, if not most police departments use the Ecollar in their training.  Many deploy the dog with the Ecollars on and operating.  It's like having insurance, it's a "just in case" situation.  I do seminars on the Ecollar, many of them are exclusively for law enforcement. 

This is going on at all levels of government, from the local, as was my case to the Federal, the governing agencies for the entire US.  In fact a friend of mine runs the K-9 program for the US Secret Service.  He's in charge of the dogs that protect the President of the US, including the patrol dogs, the bomb dogs and all the rest of the detector dogs.  He uses an Ecollar when he deems it appropriate which is just about all the time. 

Not all agencies use the Ecollar, each entity makes its own decisions as to how they train, but many do. 

'Eureka' is a lousy name for a dog, Denis. So when it gets lost you stand there shouting "I've found it"?  :D

Well, ok, maybe they could call it after my bitch as an alternative…‘Thingy’

http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j231/shots49/14.jpg
http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j231/shots49/12.jpg

Someone shove some Horlicks down Denis's throat Pleeeeeeeeeeeeze. 

And yours and Denis's tune changes does it Lou?   I don't think so.   I also note that an e collar is your first and number one tool.  Ever thought about trying to communicate with a dog through other means?

You can build a great relationship with a dog by being kind to it - why not try it sometime.  If, of course, you are capable.   And, I admit, there are some people that are not.

Whats the point of even trying to put your point over to them..... :roll:

I think theyve all probably got they collars around their own necks and if they back down they'l get zapped!  :lol:


I'l give you a the whole tub... :lol:

Oh and thanks for taking a respect point off me for thinking its cruel to hurt your pets...ohhh that really hurt!  :shock: NOT!!

Denis
First you ask a question to Lou and then you answer it yourself, why ask if you know your own answer?



Denis
No, you don't note that at all, you simply made it up as you always make things up from your land of make believe,  below is a training tool, e-collars aren't made out of rubber.

Imprinting -Bitework-stranger confrontation - fighting drive developement.
http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j231/shots49/Attilaimprinting.jpg


Denis
I don’t need to ‘think’ it out, that’s begun in the imprinting period and continues throughout life, the fact that you have no comprehension of it is irrelevant.


Denis
I don’t need to try it sometime, it’s same as above, pity you display symptoms of inverted self pity that clouds any comprehension of being kind which denotes nothing beyond an individuals own quirks.


Denis
Oh I am capable, very, – pity you have not learned past the Upper Pleistocene period.


Denis
You’re clearly a profound thinker, you just don’t think often enough, this must be your happy hour, despite the cognitive depressive patterns illustrated in your posts.

Denis
My dogs are not from pet lines so that guesswork is wrong, as always more make believe - Silly name calling is a common method of people like you who first make themselves out to be pearls of information and wisdom (re your fist post) and then find themselves looking stupid, so, as always you dig yourself deeper into the stupidity pit each post, then, you try and deflect by resorting to schoolgirl level name calling to try and take the heat off the fact you have made yourself look foolish, to late everyone has read your first post. You dug your pit and now your stuck in it.

Earlier I wrote:  

No it doesn't.  That's exactly what I've said.  It's the same.  


Where did you "note" that?  What does "number one tool" mean to you?  


What makes you think that I don't?  


"Being kind" to a dog teaches it that you're not someone to be feared.  It doesn't establish the relationship that I think is necessary, that of a fair and just leader.  If you want the dog to regard you as an equal that's fine but that often leads to trouble.  


Seddie I'm quite sure that I'm at least as capable of building a relationship with the dogs that I train as you are.  I'm not active in law enforcement any more but when I was I regularly placed my life in the paws of the dog that I was working with.  That's a relationship of trust that's far beyond what the average pet owner ever achieves.  

You're the one who started this thread Max.  You did so with a display of lack of knowledge about Ecollars in many areas but after just a few posts you seem to think that you've become an expert. 


Making childish comments like this one just makes you look foolish. 

Having that feeling, that we're "hurting our pets" is fine until one learns the truth.  Ecollars, properly used, don't cause pain.  At the worst, we're talking about minor discomfort.  Once you've learned the truth and persist in this foolishness, expect for respect for you to drop. 

Is the modern method of e-collar training the same thing as "avoidance training" or "escape training"? My understand of those terms (unclear if they are interchangeable or if they mean separate things) is that the dog obeys a command because (1) he knows that's the only way to turn off the stimulation (2) the stimulation has to be aversive enough to the dog that he wants to get rid of it rather than endure it and keep doing whatever he was doing before.

Denis
“E-Collar training”, said like that, is really a myth put about by those whose commercial interests are affected by e-collars, the term and the way you have used it implies only an e-collar is used in teaching.

E - collars fit into well understood existing training methods and all four parts of operant learning theory, under any environmental conditions, distance, dogs psychology/drive condition at any given time and work as a pack drive stimuli –

I have never known of or heard of anyone or any method of training where only an e-collar is used, which is what your term portrays or implies, before e-collars are used as a training aid primary pack drive positive reinforcers are conditioned and established, those selling the product known as "positive training" only condition prey drive stimuli , there is no significant pack drive stimuli used because they do not understand canine psychology, maybe you could expand on what you mean.

“Avoidance training” – “escape training” is the basic essential of all animal survival. All animals capable of learning something will learn “attraction” through  "avoidance, leading to attraction/reward producing behaviour", if they did not the animal would not survive beyond a few hours of its first movements.

 Pleasure seeking is the avoidance of learned unwanted aversives e.g. you go to restaurant to eat something you like, you "avoid" food you have learned is unpleasant (physical aversive), you "avoid" eating to much because of the physicaly aversive discomfort/sick you have learned happens if you over eat.

I don’t have time to reply properly but if you read the article at the link below it illustrates the destiny of an animal capable of only minimal learning and whose behaviour is mainly instinct only (unlearned), because it cannot learn by avoidance it will die as a result because it has no learned defence mechanisms – as a bye product to the topic the article illustrates the survival risks without the capability of avoidance learning, I think your questions in the way you asked them are to narrow and lopsided

Drives & Instinct
http://www.dogstuff.info/understanding_drives_denis.html

As both you and Denis only reply to what you want to, then there is no reason why myself or anyone else shouldn't do the same. ;)

Most are in rescue because nobody had attempted to train the dogs and in the case of Tilly, she still hasn't put a paw wrong since I got her at 20 weeks old in November.  She isn't the only foster dog I have had and none of them have had any training, have been very easy to train and not torn up my house.  In fact apart from my internet cable being chewed, that is the only damage that has been done.


The majority of dogs in rescue don't have behaviour problems, they do have problems because nobody had bothered to try and train them and when given boundaries they become very good family pets.  Many people don't bother teaching their children how to behave so what chance do the dogs have.  It is the same people who get nice cute cuddly puppies and when they are no longer like this, dump them.   You can't say that they have problems that can't be cured because nobody had tried, these people don't take them to training classes, why should they, many don't bother with their children going to school either.   Any dog that does have a behaviour problem, they are like that because someone had tried to train them by beating them etc. I have 2 like that here.   Others have been spoilt darlings with someone, like Gracie was, but again, quickly sorted and not a problem.


I didn't bother to read any of it Denis, I stopped reading posts like that a long time ago because they are very hard going and I can spend my time doing better things for me.  Maybe if you made it interesting to read, I may then read it.


I still have a long way to catch you and Denis up for this Lou, but I am a quick learner so may eventually overtake you :lol:



Judging by what was put up, I think that like me, other members are sick of seeing the same thing written all the time no matter what the question is.   I have no intention of arguing rationally and resonably about e collars, life is far too short for that.  I also think you are mixing me up with someone else, I have never decried e collars, I have put up my experiences, but have never said anything about not zapping my dogs with an e collar.   I have said that I have trained my dogs to be obedient without using one, that is different.   Of course I am writing nonsence, but you are not punching holes right through it, I left the holes there for you to fall into. :lol:



The sales may be rising, but so are the amount of people owning dogs, if it was the perfect tool for many of us, we would all have one.  Sales are also rising in coats, dresses etc for dogs.



Nothing emotional about me putting my hand in a fire, although you may find it emotional if you have tried it. :roll:   

If others can't aswer your questions put to other members, then you shouldn't answer questions put to Denis or Denis answer questions put to you.  You can't have it one way and not the other.   As you once said to me, it is an open forum and anyone can answer any question :D



I have also said many times that the one I saw was used wrong, check back on all the posts if you don't believe me, but I couldn't care less if you belive me or not.  I saw what it did to a dog when it was used wrong, and because of that, I would never use one on my dogs.  I don't need to use one correctly, my dogs are trained without one.



If you take into account all the people that come on this board regularly, and I am also talking about those that lurk, this is a very small percentage of these people so it isn't a good record.



Yes you both do rattle cages, especially when you can't answer a question and use attacking the member instead.



It is only a lie if I didn't know any difference, but as you keep saying that you use them on every dog, then I am going by what you have said in the past.

As I said earlier, I am a quick learner Lou ;-)



Like you, Denis also says that he uses them on every dog, so who is telling lies?  I am only going on what both of you have said.



You have taken what I said out of contex and it is a statement which you have said many times.



Maybe if you put something new up, we could respond differently but because it is the same old stuff time after time, it has all been said before many times.



Actually Lou, it is us being responsive to what you write.  This was going alone nicely discussing wine until you started to post.



Me, there is only 1 of me and I am special :-D



Oooo I have rattled your cage :lol:  Now who is lying, no dog is perfect and I have never said mine were perfect, but Denis has said quite a few times that he would never take on dogs like mine because of their problems.  No that doesn't make me better than him, it does say I prefer a challenge.



Two or three weeks Lou, once I found something that he didn't associate with his previous life, it took me 10 days to get a 99% recall from him, I think that is pretty good going especially as I had to get him over his intense fear first. 

The person who helped me get this 99% recall is the lady that Denis hates so much, Gill White.    It is thanks to both Gill and Yorkie that my dogs are so well trained and obedient. (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v312/Nethertumbleweed/rofl.gif)



I think I will go and get a bottle of elderberry wine now :D




 

Ecollar training uses both escape and avoidance, they're not the same thing, as used in Ecollar work. 

Any training that uses an aversive that has the dog doing something to make the aversive stop is escape training.  Your dog sniffs at the edge of the dinner table.  You say, "AHHHHHHHHHHHH" sharply and he walks away.  When he does you stop making that noise.  You've just used escape training. 

Next time he approaches the table he sees you there, remembers the last time that you disapproved of his sniffing and he walks on by without doing it, he's responding to the avoidance part of the equation.  He's avoided the aversive completely. 

Some people use the terms interchangeably but as you can see they're not the same.  In the first situation he makes the unpleasant noise stop by doing something.  In the second the noise doesn't occur. 


Yes, that's the essence of it. 

In answer to the OP:

-Yes, e-collars are legal.
-Yes the level can be adjusted up from zero until the dog can feel the 'stim'. At the level that I find uncomfortable, my dog even in a calm state does not even register anything at all (not a blink of the eye or twitch of the ear - she can sleep through it!).

To follow up on the dog that you saw: Was the dog wearing the collar behaving well? Did it appear under control? Did it look happy?

I own an e-collar - I also own flat collars, treats, tugs, balls on strings, a frisbee, a dumbell, bite pillows, kongs etc. They are all tools I use when training or playing with my dog. Do not assume that because I have an e-collar that I do not use food rewards or toy rewards (far from it).

Once you go down the following arguments, I'm afraid that I will either view you as a moron or very naive (with explanations):

-You wouldn't use it on a kid, so why use it on a dog? (Silly argument. You would not feed a child pet food)
-Why would you want to hurt your pet? (I don't. I wnat to train my pet)
-I've never needed to use it on my dogs. (Unless you have trained every dog that ever lived, in every environmental situation, this statement helps nobody).



What I find strange is this - people who rarely see these items (or often have never seen them used) feel they need to rant about them and want them banned? Why? Have they ever met a dog that has been abused with one?? Even if they have (which is highly unlikely), I bet they have met many more dogs abused with a fist, a foot or a stick! An e-collar is an expensive bit of kit. Why would you buy one unless you really wanted to spend time training a dog?

Lastly, most of the best trainers I have met (in the flesh) will not decry a tool or training method. They will all have different ways of using them and prefer one over the other, but they know that all dogs are different and environments vary a great deal.

No, they are not illegal yet, but more than likely will be soon.  I myself am pleased about this.

God help one of my breed if someone used one of these on them, I would not like to see what that dog would do. 

I'm sure like most things used properly they do no harm at all but we all know like check chains etc. not everybody uses them properly and as people can buy them online etc. there is a risk of them getting into the wrong hands and being used incorrectly.

Of course this can happen with any kind of collar etc. but I do not agree with this type myself.

I respond to every real, on-topic question that's asked of me.  If you want to run and hide, I understand.  


I doubt that.  I think that most people do try, but their methods don't work.  They may be poor methods or they may be methods poorly applied.  They may simply be methods that don't work with "that dog."  This forum, and just about every other one on the Net are filled with people who are asking for training advice.  Sometimes they're at the end of their rope.  Nothing they've done has stopped the dog's undesired behavior and they're one step away from taking him to rescue.  

I've worked with a couple of Rescue Organizations.  I did a seminar for one in Northern California.  They now use the Ecollar to quickly put some OB on a dog to make him more adoptable.  Larry Tillack, a SAR worker in Ohio who volunteers at a shelter, wrote an article about his success in rehabilitating an aggressive dog with an Ecollar.  http://loucastle.com/simon.htm


"Easy to train" is the type of dog that usually responds well to the so-called positive methods.  


I disagree,  I think that the majority of dogs in rescue do have some behavior problems  


The fact that people don't teach their children to behave is symptomatic of the so-called positive movement.  Never punish the child and he'll never learn what's acceptable and what's not.  


This is exactly what I said.  But it's not the majority of dogs in shelters.  


I can say that and I have.  People have tried to stop those problems.  Few owners take their dogs to rescue the first time that he has a "mistake" in the house.  Few take their dogs to rescue the first time that he won't come back when they call.  Few take their dogs to rescue the first time that he steals food from the table.  It's when the dog does these things repeatedly and they're unable to train the dog not to do them, that the dogs wind up in rescue.  


It's nonsense to argue that any dog with a behavior problem has been beaten.  Common sense tells us that the behavior problem came before the beating.  There's no denying that some dogs are the victims of abusers who will beat them whether or not there's a problem, but that situation is in the great minority.  

Earlier I wrote:
And Emmy responded

If you can point out anywhere that I've avoided a question I'll be glad to go back and show you that it's not the case.  I occasionally miss one but as soon as it's pointed out to me, I'll respond.  

Earlier I wrote:

And Emmy responded
The OP didn't think so.  That's why she asked.  And has been pointed out so many times before, Denis and I rarely start these conversations.  We're responsive to what others do.  As soon as the conversation took a reasonable tone, I responded to those points.  

If people were "sick of seeing the same thing written all the time" they wouldn’t start these topics.  Instead they have misconceptions (such as Max' that Ecollars were illegal and that they're cruel) that need to be corrected.  

And, as has been pointed out before, these topics gather the largest readership of any on the forum.  


Of course not.  You know that you'll lose in such a debate, as you and others have before this discussion.  


You're doing so right now.  


You needn't use those words to "decry" Ecollars.  But you say just this, a few paragraphs down.  LOL.  

Earlier Emmy wrote

And I responded


Great example of illogical thought and writing.  ". . . if it was the perfect tool for many of us, we would all have one.  The illogical part is the reference to "many" and "all."  Additionally it's a twist on your original words, where you used only the word "we."

In any case, Ecollars aren't perfect.  First off they're expensive.  You have to remember to keep them charged.  You have to remember to put them on the dog.  You have to remember to bring along the transmitter.  You have to learn how to use them.  Like any mechanical/electrical object they can fail. But the advantage they offer is obvious once one learns that they're not cruel and that they cause only minor discomfort at about the level of a single flea bite.  

Earlier you wrote

And I responded


Oh what nonsense!  You could have used the appropriate analogy, "It's chilly, I think I should have put on a sweater" to acknowledge the fact that an Ecollar properly used only gives minor discomfort.  Instead you intentionally used fire which carries with it huge amounts of pain, permanent disfigurement and even death.  Tell us again how you never "decry" the use of Ecollars!  LOL.  

Earlier I wrote:


There's a significant difference.  Questions that Denis and I answer when they're asked of someone else are general questions about Ecollars.  When Denis is asked something specific about what he does or his personal experience (my question to Merrow) I don't respond unless I know what he does.  I'm still waiting to hear Merrow's response to the question.  


Quite illogical, but that's never stopped you folks before.  You've probably seen cars "used wrong;" driven by the scene of crashes or seen them on the news.  Yet you probably haven't shied away from cars.  Doubtless you've heard about knives used improperly to stab someone, but you're probably still cutting your food with one.  But let you see one "wrong" use of an Ecollar and you're done for life.  ROFL.  


As I've said "No one needs an Ecollar.  

Earlier I wrote:


Given the climate in the UK I think that even one person making the conversion is a victory.  In reality there are far more.  Ecollar sales are rising in the UK.  Your government has chosen not to ban them or to place any restrictions on their use.  If they were truly cruel as some say, there would be daily arrests for violations of cruelty laws that already exist.  

Earlier you wrote:

And I responded


Please show an example of me attacking someone personally.  You can't, I don't do it.  I've answered every question that's been asked of me.  I always do.  

Earlier I wrote:


It's a lie Emmy.  You well know that I've written that I use many tools and methods.  When I write that "I use an Ecollar on just about every dog that I train." it doesn't mean that I don't use other tools and methods.  That's another one of your famous illogical leaps.  


I disagree.  

Earlier I wrote:


No, you're making illogical leaps and then trying to apply it to both of us.  Denis as well, has said that he uses other methods.  You're a liar.  

Earlier you wrote

And I responded


I disagree that your comment was "taken out of context."  You are of course free to put it back into what you feel is "the proper context."

Earlier I wrote:


Denis and I are mostly responsive to the comments of others.  It's rare that either of us start these conversations.  It's when someone else does and they include misconceptions or improper comments that we join in.  It's not up to us to "put up something new;" we're just answering questions and correcting misconceptions.  

When I have done just that, as when I posted the "White Paper" from Petsafe which showed the results of the most recent scientific study, and a comparison of the various levels of power that common devices put out compared to Ecollars; you folks went back to the same old tired arguments.  

Earlier I wrote:


What a short and convenient memory you have  Allow me to remind you of the title of this thread.  It's called "E Collars?" Not "wine."  The name of this board is Dogchat not "wine tasting."  Please review the OP's first post that started this thread.  Not a word about wine.  The wine discussion was a diversion from the original topic.  There are forums here that are specifically for such off-topic subjects as your wine discussion; but this isn't one of them.  

And I didn't start writing in this thread until the topic came back to the proper subject, Ecollars.  


Emmy you just qualified for my challenge.  I'll even drop the 100% requirement to 99% for you.  Now, just for you, it will be "$1,000 for 99%."  This requires you to do just as you've said here, recall your dog at any distance (that he can hear your voice [or if he's deaf, that he can see your recall command]) 99% of the time in the face of distractions.  If what you say is true, you can be $1,000 richer.  Care to accept the challenge?  I doubt that your dog's recall is even 99% reliable.  Let me know if you want the details.  Somehow I know that you'll find a way to worm out of what you've said.  

It is highly doubtful that Ecollars will become illegal anytime soon.  People have been saying this for years and it hasn't happened. 


I've written a few times that I trained a Pom with an Ecollar.  I've also used one on a Water Dog at a seminar.  Neither dog did anything unexpected.  Neither dog had any problem with either the Ecollar or learning what was being taught.  The differences between breeds are very slight as far as their responses to Ecollars. 

What would you think would be the problem? 


One can say this about any training tool.  Why do you single out Ecollars for such a comment? 


Yes, it obviously can. 



Do you have any personal experience with Ecollars?  Have you ever even seen one?  What is the basis for this "disagreement?" 

It is not a system that I would agree with and many behaviourists that I know in our country the UK do not either.  They are more than likely going to be banned in the UK.

I have no problems with check collars etc. used properly, have used them myself in the past, but would not use them now.  I just think that there are much kinder ways to bringing a dog round than having a shock or a choke chain used.

There are many people looking at the internet and thinking that Ecollars will cure their dogs of their problems, unfortunately the kind of people who are thinking this are the ones that haven't spent time training their dogs in the first place and then wonder why they have the bad behaviour.  It's not so much the collar that I have the problem with more the people wanting to now get hold of them thinking that it will cure all problems and as we all know if used incorrectly it won't!

There are more quotes on here than actual discussion.....

I've been lurking on this site for a while now, and as far as i can gather, both Denis and Lou are nothing more than big headed, self-centre'd couldn't give a monkey's toss, arrogant, ignorant (to other people's thoughts), hoormaister....so take your ecollars, and away and flush yer heids doon the pan!


someone said (i'm not quoting coz i cannie remember who it was that said it) that ecollars don't cause pain.....erm... well, if the "E" stands for electric... i would assume that it does most certainly cause some amount of pain....in the event of that the dog would not be safe without the "advanced training" of using an ecollar, wouldn't it just be as effective to put said dog on the lead? I work with dogs, and not one of these working dogs have ever had an ecollar near them...i expect your horrified now?  :shock: :shock:


and can i just remind you, that the OP was asking for info on these monstrosities (SP) didn't stop to think about that did you...nooooo....lets all jump down her throat.....aint horlicks you need Denis_Carthy..... tis something else.....

 

Do you?  (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v312/Nethertumbleweed/nono.gif)




I love it when you talk about what happens in this country as if you know about it.  Your experiences are in the USA, you come and give seminars, or that is what you tell us, but you don't have a clue what is happening in our pounds and rescues.(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v312/Nethertumbleweed/handbag.gif)



A Border Collie/Lab that is 8 months old and has been kept in a crate will only respond to positive methods, yes she did because they worked.  This dog didn't stop running for 6 days, she never sat or laid down unless we were in bed.  She wasn't pacing, she was running. 



Your experience of rescue dogs is in the USA Lou, not the UK, there is a lot of things that are normal in the USA but wouldn't be entertained over here. 



That is a load of old codswallop, children are not taught how to behave because their parents can't be bothered or are too tired from working all day.  I can tell a lot of tales about parents and children from when I used to work with pre school children.  Many of these children were punished, but they learnt to keep out of their parents way on occasions to avoid punishment.   There is a lot more I can write about this, but can't be bothered.



Been in our pounds and rescues Lou?  most of the dogs are either under a year old or old dogs.



Have they?  How do you know this?  Your experience is with the USA and not the UK.  You haven't a clue how some people live in this country.

 

You must think that we are really stupid or you wouldn't expect anyone on here to go through all your posts to find those that you haven't replied to.  You are very clever the way you avoid answering some questions, but we do notice it.




They come to see the fun (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v312/Nethertumbleweed/happy10.gif)

 

Repying to your yourself Lou, you have put my name on something you wrote, I never said "I have no intention of arguing rationally and resonably about e collars", you did, I don't write like that.  Check back if you don't believe me. (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v312/Nethertumbleweed/jump1.gif)

Denis
Outstanding post joker, elegant, well written and offering an abundance of information to the OP who sort of asked for information on e-collars, I am sure the OP will read your post with relish and go to bed a much wiser and informed individual that when they awake to this bright new day share together.

Well done, I am sure everyone appreciates the time and care you have spent visiting the site to leave your mark here for posterity.

Well I think Joker's post was great !!!!!   :grin: :grin: :grin: Couldn't have said it better myself  :grin: :-D
It's gotta be vodka time surely ........................... :-P :P

Well I am not going to quote anybody but would just like to say this:

How Dogs Learn and How They Get Conditioned To Respond To Commands [trained]

Dogs do what works for them.   This means they do the things that bring pleasure to them [positive reinforcers]  and they avoid the things that bring displeasure [positive punishers].

Although a mixture of the two is often used in successful dog training many people would prefer to train by largely using the positive reinforcement way than the positive punishment way.  In my view it is far more humane to get a dog to respond because it wants to have access to something than it is for the dog to respond because it wants to avoid something.

Plus with positive reinforcement this can be put on a variable ratio reinforcement schedule very soon,  whereas punishment needs to be delivered on a continuous schedule until the behaviour is fully conditioned to the extent that neural pathways have been altered [ie the habit is formed].

Why choose aversion unless or until at least you have given the dog a chance to respond without it?

As for advising novice dog owners who may get their timing wrong to use e collars or other aversive techniques such as negative reinforcement [ear or testicle pinches for example to teach a Force Fetch] is dangerous to the dog and potentially to the owner.  Okay a collar set at low may not deliver more than a mild stimulation BUT there are about 5 higher settings than can be used and who knows who might be tempted to increase the setting to a higher level than necessary.

If the e collar is not set to a setting that is at least something the dog wants to avoid then they just won't have any effect.   Punishment by definition has to be punishing.

you want MY opinion on ecollars Denny-boy? Ok....leave em where you found em...they have no place in dog training...I have trained many dogs successfully without resorting to hand help zappers..... Respect & understanding is what trains the dog, not pressing buttons.

to the OP

an ecollar is a device that is put around your beloved dogs neck, much like a normal collar, but also has a radio controlled reciever... the remote control is what is in your hand, and when you are training your dog on foot...not your day -to-day obideince training as such but when out on lenghty walks through farmland and usually herds of sheep...imagine the scene.... your walking up some hills and your dog runs off to play...then he/she spots some white woolly things and goes off to see how fast they can run...while you are shouting at the top of your voice, for your "deaf" dog to come back....Come back? nah...she/he's having far too much fun sending the sheep everywhere...what do you do? you press the button in your hand, sending an electric shock/spray of wter/vibration (whichever kind of collar you happened to inflict on your dog) and dog stops in it's track.... then recovers enough to carry on it's game.... dog still not responding to your, and another shock is administered and so on until you've caught up with your dog to put it on the lead....that is unless the farmers bullet hasn't got to your dog first......

Ofcourse in the real training world, no responsible dog owner would take thier dog into a feild full of sheep off the lead anyway...

Lou , Denis ?  :shock:

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v312/Nethertumbleweed/jerry.gif)

For one i was refering to my pets and others NOT yours SO READ WHAT I WRITE, and stop trying to argue with everthing i say! Plus i never named called you!!! I think you need to calm down and listen to whats being said instead for jumping down my throat...(as joker put it).

I have no respect for what Denis or Lou say...So stop annoying me with your comments and quotes...All your trying to do is bully me into your way of thinking...WHICH WILL NEVER HAPPEN!!




Thank you for your anwser..... And it has put my mind to rest that it can be set so low they can sleep through it! However i personally still wouldnt use them.The dog was under control but yet i felt it was on edge...and yes i admit i may be naive but im sure there are worse things i could be than that!

I have on many occasion considered using an ecollar on Kerrie, and I would presume that many others have too. Its not that we are ignorant or too stupid to understand the workings of this type of training, most of us are put off by the price tag!
Kerrie and Poppys recall is getting better, thanks to the advice from people on this site and the hard work that we have put in. I havent used an ecollar, I am not saying I wont, but the £150+ price tag is one that I cannot stretch to. 

Thanks everyone in helping me with the information i needed to help me understand e-collars in full. :smile:

My only regret is that it caused such a debate!!! :| :roll:

Can you say specifically what there is about the "system" that you don't agree with?  


Of course they don't.  For years they've been preaching that Ecollars cause pain and aren't a good training tool.  Slowly the truth is coming out, they don't cause pain and the lies they've been telling people for years are being revealed for what they are.  


Your government had the chance and didn't place the slightest restrictions on their use last session.  


What is "kind" about the type of training that you do now?  Have you ever offered a treat to a dog but then with held it?  I think that's quite cruel.  


Well then, let me be among those who will tell them that NO TOOL will cure their dogs of their problems.  ONLY training will do that.  Training that is balanced, that is it involves both reinforcement and punishment does that best.  


It would seem then that the best approach would be education, not banning.  If you educate the people who think that just putting an Ecollar on a dog will stop his bad behavior then you stop them from doing that.  

It's good that you're able to discuss this topic with such a professional tone.  It's good that you don't call people who disagree with you names.  It's good that you don't engage in personal attacks.  ROFLMAO


Used properly that's the case.  Minor discomfort is the worst result. 


There's an old saying that when you "assume" you make an "ass" out of "u" and "me."  Except it's not true you only make an ass out of yourself.  Electricity is used in many places where it doesn't hurt.  TENS units which BTW puts out about 400,000 times more power than an Ecollar, are used in physical therapy.  I've had it hundreds of times and often fell asleep when it was being used.  It's a tingling sensation, not painful at all.  Like Ecollars, TENS machines are adjustable.  Used at the lower levels they're not painful at all. 

Like many people, for you, the word "electricity" brings forth all kinds of negative connotations.  But to exist in the modern world you're best off to realize that electricity, like many things is a dual edged sword.  It can kill you; but it also makes possible the computer you're typing on. 


What "advanced training" are you referring to? 


Sure but leads break.  Collars and harness break.  Dogs pull them off.  Dogs pull the leashes out of their owner's hands.  When these things happen dogs need to be able to be recalled no matter what distractions are present.  Merely putting on a lead and not doing any training is poor advice for someone who says that he works with dogs. 



Why would you think that we'd be "horrified?" 


No one jumped down her throat in response to her question.  That came when people who spout the usual nonsense, spouted the usual nonsense. 

No, I don't see any point in offering a treat before the dog has done what you want, the treat or other reward comes afterwards.  Even when I have treats, they don't get them everytime, there are other ways to reward a dog.

You can only speak for yourself Lou, you may not find a TENs machine painful but I do, even on the lowest level.  Please don't say that everyone is like you, not everyone is and it would be a very boring work if we were all alike. ;)

LOL   now i ve gone down to 2 respect points. suppose after my last comment i'll end up with one.  Sad really :roll: :roll:  make a comment and loose a point :roll:

Emmy you must have p****d em off too lol :roll:

I have been pissing them off for years Lassie  (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v312/Nethertumbleweed/rofl.gif)  This has helped me through some very rough times with hubby and helped me cope. :lol:

 :D :D :D   

 :D :D :D

Earlier I wrote:  


Yes I do.  If you can find a question that's been asked of me that I haven't answered all that's necessary is to refer me to the specific post or re-ask the question.  


Just because I happen to be located in the US doesn't mean that I don't pay attention to what goes on in the world of dogs around the world.  Thanks to the Internet and contacts that I've made, I know quite a bit of what goes on outside my own sphere of travel.  In any case, unless you can point to some reason that there'd be a difference between the reasons that dogs are in shelters in the US v. why dogs are in shelters in the UK, in all probability they're quite similar.  You don't have the market cornered on idiot breeders who crank out puppies just so they can make a buck, they exist here too.  Per capita we probably have just as many abusers and just as many who don't train their dogs.  


It's just silly to think that I don't have contacts in the UK.  


Let's not exaggerate.  I've done only one seminar in the UK.  That was part of a SAR competition that I had been asked to come over and judge.  


Believing this would be a mistake on your part.  I have quite a few contacts in your rescue organizations.  


Until you've tried other methods on this dog it's nonsense to say that she'll "only respond to positive methods."  


Emmy you're just plain ol' wrong.  



And the converse is true.  So what?

Earlier I wrote:


Emmy very young children are not left at home alone all day.  Someone is with them or they're in some sort of child care.  That's when their knowledge of right and wrong is established.  OTOH, sociopaths, the scientists tell us are created before children are 5 years old.  


You're not going to tell me any more than 30 years of law enforcement haven't taught me.  But since it's off topic, I can't be bothered either.  


Yes, as a matter of fact, I have.  


As has been said, it's much the same here.  


I have relatives that live in the UK Emmy.  Please stop, you're just looking foolish thinking that I've never been abroad and never talked to anyone from there.  


Nope not at all.  


I disagree.  But tell you what, next time you "notice it" bring it to my attention.  Until you do so, I'll stand by my comment that I answer all questions that are asked of me.  

Earlier I wrote:


Perhaps, but they're not bored or tired as you said.  

Don't seem to have got then hang of this quoting business.... :roll: :roll:

hey Lou Lou.... i have contacts in Australia...doesn't mean that i know of Australia's training tecniques.... when you come to this country...how long do you stay for? a week? a month? that's gonna teach you lots isn't it?


do you know... if there wasn't so many quotes on this thread, there'd only be around 3 pages...!!

here's another quote for you....

If at first you don't succeed....... put an ecollar on it!

Blimey it's bad enough reading one of Lou's posts once why has he put the same one up twice........or am I seeing double??????????? :???:

Yip...he's repeated himself, lol!! :lol:

 :lol: :lol: :lol:

In that case, by the same means I must know all about the USA and what happens there.  I have a lot of friends all over the USA who I keep in touch daily, but I wouldn't say that I knew about them the way you are saying and that also means the rescues and pounds.  Most of my friends are into rescue, it is how I got to know them.


 

Twist again Lou, I said your experiences were in the USA and not contacts, I know you have contacts here, Denis is one of them, it was Denis who brought you to the board.




No exaggeration on my part, you have said seminars in the past.


 

We don't do the Temperament Test that is done in your rescues for a start.  



Didn't need to try other methods, Lou, she responded very quickly to positive methods as soon as I got her to stop long enought to be praised.  She love the praise so much that she is now a well trained and obedient dog.



Am I, you do things in your rescues that we don't do here.



Some things are considered not nice over here which is why we don't do them.



Often the person with them is drinking and smoking all day and ignoring the children.  Some are tied to a chair and stuck in front of the tv, the child doesn't learn any skills including how to talk and comumicate.  Yes I have had children like this to teach and this is only 1 example.  You expect people like this to train a dog when they can't even be bothered to speak to their children.


 

Different country, different experiences and it is relevant even though you don't seem to think so.  Most of our police don't carry guns for a start.




Maybe it is, and maybe you have the dogs in for many of the same reasons as us, because the owners are too bone idle to train them so dogs and children don't know how to behave.  Give both boundaries, and they conform.




Ahh, so because you have relatives her you know how people live, strange when we live here we still don't know how many people live but you do.




Unfortunately I can't always get on here, maybe you haven't noticed my absences, but they do happen and for quite a few months at a time.  This is out of my control so what happens then, I won't have any knowledge of.




No, I said that the long posts about the e collar is boring and we are tired of them, not the general chit chat that goes on as well.
 
 
 
 

How incredible, a thread on e-collars has shot to 8 pages in no time at all. Who would have thunk it!

He wants to make sure we all see his posts and how good he is  (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v312/Nethertumbleweed/thumbup2.gif)

We like to keep you busy and out of trouble Ryan (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v312/Nethertumbleweed/happy10.gif)

LOL  :grin: :grin: :grin: :grin:

Since you're not quoting anyone, did you write this Seddie?  If not, who did? 


Your definition of "things that bring pleasure to" dogs as "positive reinforcers" is incomplete.  Negative reinforcement also brings pleasure to the dog. 

And your definition of "things that bring displeasure" to dogs as "positive punishers" is also incomplete.  Negative punishment also brings displeasure. 


Actually a balanced combination of reinforcers and punishers used appropriately work best.  As with most things in life, balance is works best. 


As long as the thing it wants to avoid is humane, I think the training is humane.  There's humane and there's inhumane.  I don't think that one can be "more humane" than "humane."  There's pregnant and there's not pregnant.  Same thing. 


As long as the punishment is humane, I think that the training is humane. 


Because it gives very good results very quickly. 



Timing is even more important with so-called positive methods than with methods that use punishment.  The novice will find this to be true very quickly. 


Odd but I haven't seen a discussion of forced fetch anywhere in this conversation.  I've never heard of anyone advocate squeezing a dog's testicles as part of that training.  Is this something that's done in the UK? 


Actually with most collars there are far more than five higher settings.  But why would anyone want to use them if the lowest one gives such fast results?  Similarly if someone using so-called positive methods thinks that one bit of food is good than many must be better.  Soon a dog is suffering from being overweight and its attendant health problems.  Nothing is foolproof. 



Yep that's true.  Do you have some point with this comment? 

"Denny-boy?"  Do you have some special relationship with Denis that the rest of us aren't aware of?  LOL. 


OK thanks.  Lot of people find them extremely useful. 


Me too.  But since they work so well and so quickly, I'll probably never train a dog without using one again. 


Pressing buttons without direction won't get you anything.  With a purpose and a method, it will get you quite far.  But "respect and understanding" will get you nothing without some purpose and method in mind. 


Actually an Ecollar can be used for "day-to-day obedience" quite well. 


This is an extremely limited idea of what an Ecollar is, how it's used and what it can do.  Joker based on this comment, I'd say that you've barely scratched the surface as to how and Ecollar can be used.  If this is all you think Ecollars can be used for, no wonder you aren't fond of them. 

Dogs can easily be trained for basic OB with one.  They can be used to train a dog NOT to even start the chasing you describe here.  They can be used to give a fearful dog confidence and to make an aggressive dog stop his aggression.  How to do all this, and more, is in articles on my website. 

BTW the Ecollars that we're discussing here do not include collars that spray water, air or chemicals.  While they may have a vibration mode they also have a mode that emits electrical stims. 

"Denny-boy?"  Do you have some special relationship with Denis that the rest of us aren't aware of?  LOL. 


OK thanks.  Lot of people find them extremely useful. 


Me too.  But since they work so well and so quickly, I'll probably never train a dog without using one again.  I think that they're so humane and so easy for a beginner to learn to use that I advocate them for basic training for most dogs.  I think they're far easier than any method that uses so-called positive techniques. 


Pressing buttons without direction won't get you anything.  With a purpose and a method, it will get you quite far.  But "respect and understanding" will get you nothing without some purpose and method in mind. 


Actually an Ecollar can be used for "day-to-day obedience" quite well. 


This is an extremely limited idea of what an Ecollar is, how it's used and what it can do.  Joker based on this comment, I'd say that you've barely scratched the surface as to how an Ecollar can be used.  If this is all you think Ecollars can be used for, no wonder you aren't fond of them. 

Dogs can easily be trained for basic OB with one.  They can be used to train a dog NOT to even start the chasing you describe here.  They can be used to give a fearful dog confidence and to make an aggressive dog stop his aggression.  How to do all this, and more, is in articles on my website. 

BTW the Ecollars that we're discussing here do not include collars that spray water, air or chemicals.  While they may have a vibration mode they also have a mode that emits electrical stims. 

I'm as shocked as you are Jason.  I've never heard of anyone doing this.  When doing the ear pinch, which I'm not fond of, one grasps the dog's collar in the same hand that's doing the ear pinch.  The other hand controls the object that you're training the dog to hold. 

But with a "testicle pinch" it seems to me that you either need an assistant or a third hand or some other way of securing the dog's head.  And because the dog will want to "scoot" his testicles out of your reach, you'd also need some way to secure his rear end too.  But maybe someone has worked all this out.  Seems like there are easier ways to get this done. 

I prefer to use natural drives to get a retrieve anyway. 

OK.  My feelings aren't hurt.  LOL


If you're annoyed and you want to avoid that feeling, I'd suggest that you not bother to read the thread. 


No one is bullying you Max.  We're merely presenting the truth about Ecollars.  If you can't accept those truths it's your loss. 

And to go back to your original questions. 


No, they're not. 


To put it into terms that people are familiar with.  An Ecollar used, as I advocate, emits 0.000005 Joules.  An abdominal energizer, one of those passive stomach exercisers, emits 0.914 joules, almost 183,000 times more powerful.  An electric fence charger emits 3.2 Joules, 640,000 times more powerful.  A defibrillator emits 360 Joules, 72,000,000 times more powerful.  Ecollars are best used where the dog first feels the stim at the lowest levels. 


There are two parts to them.  One part the dog wears on a collar.  The other part is held by the trainer where he can set the stim level and press buttons to deliver stim to the collar unit. 


Yes.  Different models have various numbers of settings.  Some have as few as a couple of levels and some have as many as 127 levels. 


They're not banned because your government didn't fall for the pseudoscientific studies, that don't apply to modern use of the tool that were presented to them in an effort to ban the Ecollar.  Many of them use Ecollars and they know that they're neither inhumane nor cruel. 

Earlier I wrote:


You've never used a treat to lure a dog into position? 


My god. The horror!  ROFL. 

Earlier I wrote:


Actually I can speak for many others on this.  I went to physical therapy for many years and saw the TENS units used on hundreds of people.  Because of my interest in Ecollars and realizing that they had many similarities to Ecollars, I asked them about their experiences with them.  I also asked the PT Techs about this. 



You are the first person that I've ever heard who has ever said that even at the lowest level she found the TENS machine painful.  This was also the experience of the ten or so very experienced PT Techs that I asked about this.  At the lowest level most people couldn't even feel it! 

You won't mind if I have a healthy dose of skepticism about your statement will you?  Especially given the way that you feel about Ecollars.  LOL. 

Come up with some new arguments and you'll hear something new in response.  Post the same old nonsense and you get the same old responses. 

Earlier I wrote:


I've seen nylon leashes break and seen their loops come unsewn.  To say that they don't is absurd.  It just shows that it hasn't happened to you. 

Additionally since nylon "burns" when a dog pulls it through the owner's hand doing so can make the owner drop it.  If they don't have the loop over their hand the dog is gone. 

And many people use retractable leashes, such as the Flexi which don't even offer a loop.  If a dog takes off running they can easily be pulled from the owner's hand when the dog hits the end of the leash. 

I think you said that you "worked with dogs."  How many dogs have you "worked with" and can you describe this work? 


That's not necessary either.  Nylon can be damaged by the UV rays of the sun in ways that don't show up until it's too late.  They can be stepped on or run over by a car and cut internally so that the damage isn't visible on the outside. 


Again, quite wrong.  Harnesses are subject to the same kinds of damage from the sun and physical damage as leashes and collars. 



Yep that's right.  And many pet owners find this happening to them.  They don't want to "hurt" or "choke" Fluffy so they don't put his collar on tightly enough. 



Of course not Joker, you're the perfect dog owner.   Nothing like this could ever happen to you! 

Even in this small thread there's at least one owner who's big enough to admit that it's happened to her.  Take a look around this forum and you'll find plenty of people that it's happened to.  When it does, if the dog doesn't have a good recall (and there are plenty of people who don't bother because they "always" have their dog on a leash) he's gone.  If there's a busy street nearby it's only a matter of luck if he doesn't run into it. 

If you haven't had this happen it's only a matter of time.  I've seen all of them happen with both nylon and leather. 


As has been said MANY times, they trained dogs without them.  What did they do before clickers?  What did they do before head halters?  What did they do before (fill in the blank with your tool of choice)? 

Ecollars are here now and they make training much easier and faster.  They also make it possible to do something that no other tool allows, giving the dog a "tap on the shoulder" when he's at a distance from the handler. 

My contacts are trainers who I've spoken to at length about their techniques and methods.  Many have visited the US, come to my training and seen what I do and how I do it.  I've kept in contact with many of them and kept up with what they're doing in the field of training dogs, as they've kept up with what I'm doing.  I've spent hundreds of hours on the phone, looking at video and discussing what they do. 


My only trip to the UK lasted about ten days plus a side trip to Spain to teach a seminar there.  During that ten days I was in the presence of dog trainers every day but one.  We discussed what we did at length.  I saw them work dozens of dogs and I showed them what I did.  So to answer your question, YES, it taught me lots. 

This came up when another poster said that I didn't know what goes on in shelters and rescue operations in the UK.  I don't need to be there to make a phone call or two to some shelter directors that I know and ask them what's going on. 


Good thing we're not using paper.  Quoting makes it crystal clear what is being responded to.  Who cares, how many pages it takes up? 



Not a bad idea for those dogs who don't respond to other methods. 

We're talking about a very narrow segment of dogs in shelters.  We're not talking about everything that goes on in the UK. 


Emmy when this came up I made three phone calls to the UK to people who are shelter directors in various large cities there.  They told me that the situation is just about identical in the UK and the US. 



Earlier I wrote:


I don't think that I've ever said that I've "done seminars" in the UK.  If you disagree, feel free to find that post and bring it here. 


Not every rescue organization here does it.  For you to make this comment just shows how little you know about what's going on in rescue organizations in the US. 

Earlier you wrote:

And I responded: 


You missed the point.  You said, the dog "will only respond to positive methods."  (Emphasis added.)

The fact is that since you didn't try other methods you have no idea if she'd have responded to them or not. 


The Ecollar could have stopped her running so that her training could have started. 


Do you have some point?  We were discussing the reasons that dogs wind up in rescue not what is done with them afterwards.  In that, the US and the UK are quite similar, as I've said. 


Again, the converse is true.  So what? 

Earlier I wrote:


As always happens with this discussion people start talking about abuse and misuse instead of talking about proper use.  What you describe here is an aberration, a good example of child abuse.  It's not common and it's not what should be being discussed unless your intent is to side-track the conversation, which it may very well be. 


Oh nonsense.  People are people no matter what country they're from.  Human nature isn't particular to any single country.  That's why it's called it's called HUMAN nature, not "US nature" or "UK nature." 


This has nothing to do with this, or any conversation that's pertinent to the discussion of Ecollars. 


We're talking about one very specific thing here; why dogs are in shelters.  It has nothing to do with how people live. 

Earlier I wrote:


You're the one who wrote that you "noticed" when I fail to respond to questions.  Next time you "notice" it, bring it to my attention.  This goes for anyone and everyone.  Now you're just making excuses.  ROFL. 



I don't think they're boring; I find them fun as heck; and based on readership stats neither do the rest of the forum.  No one is forcing anyone to either read or participate in the thread or to read the posts. 


I didn't realize that you were the spokesperson for the rest of the members of the forum.  Did I miss a memo?  ROFLMAO. 

As someone who works for a childrens home, I can safely say that the scenario that has been described is very common. More common than anyone could ever realise. Hence there are 12,000 children from 6 months to 18 years in care in the UK at the moment. Plus there are all the children and the abuse that none of us know about.

Sorry to hijack the thread OP

Thou shalt not lead me into temptation, now I have a little more time :twisted:

It was just an example......

where you say that you find them to "train" the dog quickly and effectively and would probably never train a dog without one ever again, would suggest (to me) that you are in a hurry to train dogs....what's wrong with training them without the ecollars? develope thier personality...unless of course you don't think dogs have personalities?

personally, I don't think YOU have a personality, other than there's a dog...wap an ecollar on it... Remote Controlled Doggie!!

as for Denny-boy, not telling!!! >sticks tongue< out at Lou Lou......  :grin: :grin:

hows the weather in The US of A?

Lou: Thanks for answering my question about whether e-collars are use primarily as avoidance/escape training. The reason I asked is because the e-collar franchise school I visited, insists that their method is not avoidance (or maybe it was escape) training.   

Do you have any videos or DVDs demonstrating your method?

At our neighborhood dog park today, an acquaintance whose dog is trained with the e-collar from that school, was recalling her dog. The dog stopped playing and recalled but very slowly, her whole demeanor changed in a second from one of playfulness to one of reluctance. But I guess it's better than not recalling at all. When I recalled my dog, he came to me more quickly and without any drop in playfulness. Thus my ongoing experience in seeing the results of e-collars is either reluctant or unresponsive dogs, or responsive but stressed-out dogs. I understand you do not advocate using e-collars the way that school does, so I'd be interested to see the results of your method of using e-collars if you have any DVDs for sale.


Negative reinforcement brings relief which is not quite the same thing as pleasure because distress is also involved in feeling relief whereas in pure pleasure it is not. Example: if you are suffocating, then finally being able to breathe is a relief because the distress is gone. Not the same as a pleasurable but stress-free sensation (such as inhaling a pleasant aroma when one is not suffocating). To increase the "pleasure" gained from negative reinforcement, the aversive or distress must first be increased (e.g. the more you are suffocating, the more "pleasurable"  breathing becomes). Doesn't this mean then that negative reinforcement when executed with e-collars is, by definition, based on giving the dog minimal pleasure because it's the result of a mild aversive disappearing. Does minimal pleasure always motivate the dog to obey a command instead of following a distraction, even a high distraction? If not, then to increase the "reward" for the dog, the aversive must first be increased, at which point aren't we causing distress to the dog? And in  the world of positive-only methods, deliberately causing distress is considered inhumane, especially if done often or as a first rather than last resort.



Just as there is a difference between relief and pleasure, there is a difference between "displeasure" and "stress", for example feeling low-level stim versus feeling high-level stim. Negative punishment causes feelings of displeasure, positive punishment causes feelings of stress.


I agree that balance is best. However the difference in opinion is what constitutes appropriate "balance" between reinforcers and punishers. Most people who use positive-methods, including myself, do also at some point use positive punishment and negative reinforcement, but would prefer to limit their use to an occasional event. From this viewpoint the objection to using e-collars as the primary training tool is that this means we are using negative reinforcement often rather than just occasionally, which is not what positive-methods people deem is a proper "balance" for the psychological health of the animal.

Maybe we can then debate on whether withholding or delaying a treat (negative punishment) which is employed often in positive-methods, is the same level of aversive to an animal as feeling the physical discomfort of a stim that is just aversive enough to motivate the dog to obey a command.


I disagree. Can one thing be "more cruel" and another "less cruel"? For example withholding a treat from a dog versus beating a dog to death - it is clear there is such a thing as "more cruel". So the converse has to be true, one thing can be "more  humane" than another.


I agree. That, and if the punishment is effective enough that it doesn't need to be repeated often.


If for a given behavior, positive methods work just as quickly and effectively, for example teaching a dog to sit in the house, then the use of aversives is unnecessary. And unnecessary use of aversives equates to being inhumane...or if not inhumane, then "less humane" :-)

Along these lines, if there was no practical way to get the behavior other than to use aversives (for example crittering or snake avoidance) then the use of aversives is in fact necessary and thus humane if it doesn't also cause problems in the dog.


Every book I've read and every other trainer I've talked to says the opposite though. And as a novice I didn't find this to be true either. (the books and other trainers confirmed my personal experiences, not the other way round)



If this happens, it is improper use of the tool isn't it (food in this case)  :smile:

I think the e-collar debates often get taken in all sorts of different directions based on what people think the e-collar actually does. I think if someone believes the collar is a device capable of delivering the dog physical pain and, when in the hands of someone who is not going to use it properly, they will always view the tool itself as cruel and not to be trusted.

Other people, I think, tend to see those who use the e-collar as somehow 'lesser' dog trainers. I used to hold this view myself and I'll still go on record as saying the e-collar is not the tool for me, I simply prefer to train using the methods which have served me well for a number of years. What I will say though is that I HAVE changed my opinion of thinking ALL trainers who use the e-collar are lesser trainers. The debates on this board have made it very clear to me that some people can and do achieve excellent results with the e-collar. Having seen the issue debated at length and taking a totally open minded view, I would say Lou in particular obviously knows his stuff about the e-collar and canine behaviour in general and I can't believe he is a 'lesser' dog trainer to others who have argued against his method of training (which they are perfectly entitled to do as he is perfectly entitled to pick those arguments apart as he sees fit)

I think if somebody believes the tool itself to be cruel and capable of inflicting physical pain, it will be hard if not impossible to alter that view. By definition, if someone believes that the people who use the e-collar are cruel, they will hold them in contempt. Personally, I don't think that is the case that everyone who uses the e-collar is cruel because I've seen plenty of dog trainers who ARE cruel (knowingly or otherwise) because they simply do not know enough about how dog's behave or they have a completely outdated view as to how a dog learns - nothing to do with the tools they do or don't use.

I think it all comes down to the person using the e-collar rather than the tool itself. As has been stated over and over, any number of tools, objects, training aids etc can be misused and cause a dog pain and fear. I'm prepared to say that this board and these e-collar debates have changed my view toward some of the people who chose to use an e-collar. It's been shown that they do know a lot about dogs, dog training and they have settled on this as an acceptable method of training. I no longer hold the view that all who use the e-collar are somehow 'inferior' trainers (although they are inferior to me, I am a GOD when it comes to dog training so there's no shame in that ;) )

Having said that, I am still not tempted to use an e-collar as I've not yet felt my own methods have failed me in getting the results I want with the dogs I've worked with. I would extend that same level of acceptance to those who do chose to use the e-collar for the same reasons. I would also reiterate that some of these e-collar debates, whilst containing an absolute mountain of guff, conjecture, misinformation, personal abuse and in large parts downright vitriol, have also produced some really insightful exchanges between people who know their dog stuff and believe passionately in educating others about dog behaviour. That has to be a good thing in my book and certainly enables people to make their own minds up.

Amen K9Media!

I know a chap who has competed at the nationals at Schutzhund and qualified several dogs in working trials, who has recently been attending clicker seminars with great interest. For teaching most exercise he uses food or toy rewards, but he has pinch collars and an e-collar, and uses them on his GSDs. He views clicker training as another method in his armoury.

This man needs his dog to work in drive. The obedience routine in Schutzhund must not only be accurate, but the dog should show real enthusiasm and speed in its work to get top points. He would not use tools or methods that are going to squash that drive or produce nervous dogs.

I have no problem if someone decides not to use an e-collar (why would I?). I do object to people who want to limit my choices, usually based on poor information and irrational hatred of an inanimate object. :razz:

Do you mean DB?

One of the most impressive users I ever saw was on here about 3 years ago, her username was Panny, she had a little Yorki which she described as a very sensitive bitch, she was really into doing things with that dog and put a lot into training her-got everything except a reliable recall –

At that point in time the only collar which would fit her dog was a Canincom collar and it was very low spec- anyway she got on with it, got a perfect recall, improved her relationship and all commands, she used here and her phone support, she still used her clicker and treats, no qualms with her, she wanted to try one and just went ahead and did it all.

No, never needed to.



Nothing better to say than this Lou, you must be loosing your touch (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v312/Nethertumbleweed/grouchy.gif)



Ahh!!!  because you heard people say that they don't hurt, you know more than someone who has experienced a TENs machine.  (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v312/Nethertumbleweed/rofl.gif)



I know others Lou so it isn't only me, but to say you know more than someone who as experienced a TENs machine, that really does show just what sort of person you are (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v312/Nethertumbleweed/jump1.gif)



There isn't any need to have a collar on a dog tight, there are martingale collars that will close over enough to stop a dog from slipping out of the collar then the release when the dog stops.  These are not like choke chains that continue to tighten but can only tighten so far and shouldn't choke or hurt a dog.  They are very popular with Greyhound and Whippet owners who's dogs have small heads.



Well done Joker, Lou speaks like this when he can't think of anything else to say that may put you down.(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v312/Nethertumbleweed/adamandeveit.gif)



According to you, you put them on a dog right away to train them so don't wait to see if other methods don't work.





Then you should make yourself clearer, according to what you have said, you know everything about this country.



Which cities Lou?   Most of the pounds are run by kennels who have applied for the job of taking in the stray dogs and are under contract.  Many of them are also boarding kennels and this includes the large cities.  I go into the pound that covers Leeds, Bradford, Halifax and Wakefield areas, all big cities or towns but no shelter director.



Were did I say every rescue in the USA uses this method?  All I said was we didn't do it, putting something there that isn't there again Lou.



No, I didn't miss the point, you did, I didn't try any other methods because my methods worked so why try other methods?



She had spent most of her short life in a crate so why should I stop her running?  Those few days of her freedom to run meant I just waited a few days to start training her, but meant a lot to her, at last she was able to run instead of being cooped up which she had been for months.  Allowing her to run would do more good for her mental attitude than using an e collar on her and stopping her.



No, we are talking about rescues generally.

 

Then why go on about it, I said that I wasn't going to discuss it but you did so I replied.  You don't know how common it is over hear, according to you, you have only been here once so how can you see what is happening.



You are right about human nature, but along with that goes people's experiences and it is our experiences that goes a long way to make us the people we are.  We are not used to seeing guns in this country, but in the USA many people are used to seeing them.  

 

If you don't want it this to go off topic, don't take it off topic.  



It has everything to do with how we live, it is because of peoples lifestyles that so many dogs are in shelters.  The want a cuddly puppy but when that puppy is not longer cuddly the abandon it, that is their lifestyle.



Shows how much of these posts you have read because several have said that they are boring, it isn't just me.

Just for the moment let's assume that EVERY ONE of those 12,000 children were being abused as Emmy describes.  Of course we know is not the case but just for the sake of argument let's imagine that it is.  According to the Dept. of Health in the UK, children between the ages of 1-18 number about 11.7 million.  Those in "children's homes" is about 0.1% of the total population.  That's one child out of 1,000 children.  That's not "very common." 

Of course even one child in this situation is too many but let's not pretend that it's "very common." 

Now back to our regular programming. 

I do love the way you twist things, the members aren't stupid, they can read what I have written and they don't twist words to try and put someone down but it isn't working.  (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v312/Nethertumbleweed/jerry.gif)

What's wrong with wanting to achieve the end, a dog that can be enjoyed for himself, without behavioral problems, quickly?  Would it be better if it took three years to teach a dog to sit? 


Training with an Ecollar doesn't do anything to inhibit the dog's personality.  If you think it does, please let us know how it affects the personality and why it does so. 


Thereby clearly demonstrating your ignorance of how an Ecollar works and what can be achieved with it. 

Can you tell us of your personal experience with an Ecollar please? 

Ok, am confused now....Lou hunny, you say you prefer to train (and it comes across that you will ONLY train) with an ecollar..... Is that right?

Am asking coz you say in your website and I quote "I use any method and tool that gets the job done" before going on to say that you find the best tool for most dogs is the ecollar.... so presumably you try the other methods first, before using the ecollar? but on this site what you say is you just put the ecollar on and get on with it!

You know, you have to watch you say on one part of the internet as the internet is a very small world, and sh!t like that will catch up with you...esp if you advertise it in your signiture.

And yes, I'll admit i know sweet FA about ecollars...but anything that produces a negative reaction in a sensitive dog will not get my vote. I have trained a few dogs in the same way and it works.

Forgot to say...the rottie on your website.... was that trained with an ecollar? doesn't look at all happy....

 :lol: :lol: :lol: To that last remark joker!


And this is for you Lou.....

OMG!!!! IT ONLY TOOK YOU TILL PAGE 8 TO ANSWER MY QUESTIONS....THATS ALL I ASKED!..... Oh you dont half go on....do you?

And before you start quoting this as well as everything else, dont even bother youve made yourself out to look a big enough prat!!

 :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Multiple Personality Disorder? :mrgreen:

 :roll: :wink:

It is time to get the elderberry wine out ;-)

lets just get the takeaway in...and some food!!

Im not really a wine lover....I'l just put the kettle on.. :-P

Hey ho, time flies....it's almost Valentines day again, Maxi!

denis_amour@hotmail.com

Treating us all to roses and cards Denis ;-)

 :lol: :lol: :lol:

maddie....you have a date!!

Forget the cuppa.....I need a drink!!!! :lol:

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v312/Nethertumbleweed/rofl.gif) (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v312/Nethertumbleweed/rofl.gif) (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v312/Nethertumbleweed/rofl.gif) (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v312/Nethertumbleweed/rofl.gif) (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v312/Nethertumbleweed/rofl.gif)

One of the problems with that school (of using the Ecollar) is that the founder knows little about dog training beyond how to force behavior from a dog.  He knows nothing of drives and nothing about motivation aside from causing pain and teaching the dog how to avoid it.  I have a great deal of evidence that points to the fact that he doesn't even like dogs.  They're just a way for him to make money. 

Many people will say that they're not using escape or avoidance training because they think it has some "bad" commutation.  And it does to those who rely on common language when they read it.  But this is learning theory that's based on science and as such the words should be read for what they are, jargon, the technical terminology of a special activity.  It's much the same as when the word "punishment" is discussed in the context of Operant Conditioning. 


No.  I'm not in the business of training dogs so I haven't felt the need to make one.  I have some footage that shows me doing some of the work but I haven't gotten it ready for release. 


That's not atypical of what happens when methods from those folks are used. 


I hate to see that.  It tells me that the dog doesn't enjoy coming to the owner, something that the dog should favor over all other trained behaviors.  It doesn't happen with my methods. 


When I recall my dogs they race in anticipating something good.  That may be a treat, some play or (for my working dog) a search or a bite. 

Doesn't your acquaintance see this in your dog?  Doesn't she see the difference?  Doesn't that tell her something about what she's doing? 


If that's all I saw and I didn't know that there was another way, I'd be against Ecollars. 


As I said, I don't have anything for you to see.  If you'd like to talk to some people first-hand who use my methods take a look at my website under the heading "testimonials."  Many of those people have given me permission to give out their contact information.  Inquire privately and I'll give you the info. 

But let's face it, even if I did have videos showing the work and the end product, some people would say that it was faked; that I'd used someone else's dogs trained with other methods. 

Earlier I wrote:

While you may think that there's a difference, science does not.  Distress only occurs if the punishment level is too much for that dog at that moment.  When it's applied properly this doesn't happen. 

Learning theory doesn't recognize a difference between "relief" and reinforcement.  I think that it's a value judgment that you've placed on the situation because it has a nicer sound to it.  As far as its effect on the behavior, they're the same. 


"Suffocating" is way too aversive for any kind of training effect to occur.  As soon as it occurs people (and other animals) panic and little if any, learning occurs when it's relieved.   


First this is an extremely poor example because of the "aversive" you've chosen, suffocation.  You're talking apples and oranges.  Comparing suffocation with all its human perceptions of it to an estim is an inappropriate comparison. 

Next, you talk about "increasing" the suffocation (comparing it to increasing the stim level) when it's not necessary.  And it gives, as you've personally seen from the "other school" poor results. 


It seems to be enough.  There isn't any faster method that I've found. 


Can you give me an example?  I'm not following your use of the term "minimal pleasure" in this context. 


As you've seen with the results from the "other school" increasing the aversive has the opposite effect.  If you cause pain to the dog training is no longer fun, no matter how much "relief" is provided.  An animal that's in pain, the result of increasing the punishment too high, can't learn.  He's too concerned with the pain.  The punishment is too great and the reinforcement of having it stop isn't sufficient. 


What so-called positive methods consider to be inhumane is a personal judgment. 

Earlier I wrote:

I think those differences don't exist except in semantics. 


This quickly becomes "if a little is good, more must be better" and it's rarely true. 


Sorry but this simply isn't true as long as the punishment is at the appropriate level for that dog at that moment.  This is a myth that the so-called positive people would have everyone believe.  But those of use who use aversives know that it's just not true.  "TOO MUCH" punishment causes stress. 

Completely avoiding stress results in animals (including humans) who when faced with its inevitable appearance, can't handle it.  Any learning involves stress, even if it's masked by someone who's constantly popping treats. The "so-called positive crowd" doesn't like to admit this, but it's true. 

Earlier I wrote:

EXACTLY!  This is a difference of opinion.  I don't care what method or tool anyone uses.  I've said this many times before.  If it works for them, that great!  I’m not here to convince anyone to drop what they're doing and have them embrace Ecollars.  I'm here to supply accurate information in the face of opinion that's based on emotion and a lack of experience with modern use of the modern tool. 

For years people have been given rather complete misinformation about Ecollars; so often that it's become accepted as gospel. 


Many won't admit to this.  You may have seen those discussions on this forum. 


Many "positive methods people" insist that they don't use punishment in any way.  They're wrong as I've shown repeatedly.  In Ecollar training, the balance is equal.  For every punishment there's a reinforcement.  When the trainer adds copious amounts of praise, treats, petting etc. the balance shifts to whatever extent he wants it to.  Since you say that you use punishment "just occasionally, can you tell me what percentage of reinforcement to punishment is acceptable? 

I happen to think that it's the dog who determines this.  Some dogs on some days don't need much reinforcement.  Other dogs on other days, need lots. 




OK we don't agree. 


The latter is over.  The first lasts for the life of the dog.  He learns that he can't trust the person who did this.  Which is "less cruel? 


.

If the punishment is too severe, and the dog is the sole judge of this; all sorts of unwanted things happen.  Aggression can be one result.  Fear another.  That's why I advocate that one not go above the level where the dog first feels the stim. 

Earlier Seddie wrote: 
And I responded.

The problem is that "sitting in the house" is insufficient for just about any pet owner.  You can have a perfect "sit in the house" but as soon as the distractions present outdoors occur, the training is out the window. 


There are many "positive methods people" that say that even for these purposes aversives aren't acceptable.  You may have also seen those discussion on this forum.  There are even those who say that they wouldn't use an Ecollar if it would save the dog from being put to sleep! 



The reason that clicker trainers use that tool is because it marks the "exact moment in time" (many of them say that using your voice here isn't precise enough).  If you're a second too late or a second too early, the wrong behavior is marked.  The dog learns the wrong thing.  However the scientists tell us that if the punishment follows the act by up to three seconds it's effective.  The closer it is to the act, the faster learning occurs.  But all that happens is one is a bit late, is that more repetitions are required. 

Earlier I wrote:


Yes but it doesn't stop those opposed to the Ecollar from bringing it up at ever turn, as if it was proper use.  Turnabout is fair play.  LOL

Maybe we'll all get a dozen red ecollars.... :lol:

Lou if you knew anything about dog psychology the use of e collars is avoidance behaviour.   The dog avoids the 'stim/shock' by knowing how to avoid it - hence it takes action that does not bring this on [as long as consistently applied].   Which may be okay for those that can be consistent and have impeccable timing but most of the world of pet dog owners cannot.

This is the danger of using e collars.

I agree.  Often this is the same type of person who wants the government to pass laws to protect the public from all sorts of things.  They don't trust others and want them controlled. 


This is fairly common.  Sometimes they apply the term "lazy" or say we're after a "quick fix."  Sometimes it gets quite insulting with every phase of our life being brought into question. 


YAY


Thanks for the kind words Ryan. 


I agree.  There have only been a few who have altered their position at all.  But if there was only one, I'd be happy.  I guess it doesn't take much.  LOL. 


This is a hard one for most people.  Many are unable (or unwilling) to behave civilly to someone that they hold in contempt.  The rules of common courtesy simply go out the window.  I held most people that I arrested in contempt during the course of my career.  But that didn't allow me to act unprofessionally.  It's too bad that others can't behave courteously. 


This sounds vaguely familiar.  I wonder where I've heard it before.  LOL. 


Quite the enlightened view Ryan.  Thanks for writing this. 

Earlier I wrote:



I didn't say that I knew more than you about the effect that the TENS machine had on you, I said that I doubted that you were being honest. 

When I did the seminar in the UK I passed an Ecollar around the audience and stimmed anyone who wanted to feel what it was like.  As always the nearly universal response was, "Is that all it is?"  They nearly universally described it as a "buzz" or a "tingle."  But one woman jumped up and screamed at the top of her lungs.  Except it had happened when I wasn't pressing the button!  I thought that there was some failure with the unit and exchanged it for another one.  Her reaction, even though I was only pretending to press the button was the same.  Realizing that the chance of having two Ecollars fail at nearly the same moment was very small; I tested it on myself and it was working fine.  She refused to believe that I hadn't pressed the button! 

Later, after the seminar was over she caught me in the hallway and apologized for her behavior.  She admitted that she was rabidly anti-Ecollar and was anticipating a painful electric shock so as soon as the contact points touched her skin, she jumped as if she'd received a shock from a wall socket. 


I've never said anything of the kind Emmy and you well know it.  The fact that you make this accusation shows what kind of person YOU are. 


Earlier I wrote:


Completely overlooking the fact that not everyone uses a tightening collar or even knows they exist.  More begging the question from the champion. 

Earlier I wrote:


No this is what I say when someone thinks that the common mistakes that many pet owners make can't possibly happen to him. 


You're a liar Emmy.  Quote such a statement that I've ever made.  It depends on what's being trained. 


Yet another lie.  Quote that statement. 

Earlier I wrote:


They've asked not to be identified.  They've all said that they'd like to use Ecollars on the dogs in their shelters to make them more adoptable but given the political situation there, they can't. 


I won't play "20 questions" but none of them are from any of those shelters. 

Earlier Emmy wrote: 

And I replied

When you wrote, "We don't do the TT that is done in your rescues . . ."  You're implying that "all rescues" do this test.  You're wrong as I pointed out.  But if you want to weasel out, that's fine with me. 

Earlier I wrote:


ROFL.  You missed the point again.  It makes no difference what you tried, you still don't know if the dog would have responded to other methods. 


So that training could have been started. 


You'd like to think that it was good for her "mental attitude" but that's just an opinion.  She could have run under controlled conditions and then the training could have been started much sooner. 

Earlier I wrote:  


Your attitude, that one needs to be on the ground to "know what is happening" is absurd.  If that was the case than only a very small group of people could know anything.  The statistics (as I've cited) are there for anyone who wants to go looking for them. 


Sort of like the pages of discussion about wine? 


Earlier you said that it was the fault of the breeders who just wanted to make money.  Now it's all about the "lifestyle."  ROFL. 

Earlier Emmy wrote: 

And I responded: 

Oh so you're the spokesperson for "several" now.  The moderator has said that he thinks these discussions are interesting.  I agree with him.  As has been said before, no one is forcing anyone to read these posts.  If you find that you (or anyone) is tired of them, don't bother to read them.  My feelings won't be hurt.  ROFLMAO. 

I haven't twisted anything Emmy.  If you think I have, instead of merely making an accusation, which means nothing without proof, back it up with by quoting where you think that I twisted your words. 


I don't think they are either. 



You tried to use child abuse as an analogy to using an Ecollar.  As always, it won't work. 

"Hunny?"  You may have a special relationship with Denis but you don't with me.  I realize that you're confused.  I'll try to help you understand.  LOL 


Yes your confusion is obvious.  The Ecollar is the best tool for training most behaviors that exists in dog training today.  But it's not the best for everything.  Certain things, tricks for example, are usually better taught with so-called positive methods.  I taught my patrol trained dog to bark on command with them.  So it's quite obvious that I don't train with only an Ecollar. 


I guess that didn't help clear up your confusion.  Seems pretty obvious to me but I'll be patient with you.  LOL


I've been training long enough so that I know what methods will work best for a given behavior with a given dog.  Sometimes I put the Ecollar on right away and sometimes I use other methods.  It depends on what's being trained at the moment.  I work with police dogs, SAR dogs and pets.  The requirements are quite different for each group. 


Still confused I see! 


I wonder how I knew that this would be your answer to my question?  How is it that you think that your opinion about the tool has any value here?  You know nothing about the tool, how it's used, or why it works, yet you talk as if you have some experience with it.  Like many people you think you know but you really don't.  ROFL. 


I suggest that you read my website a little further.  Particularly read the articles on Simon and Roma; two very sensitive dogs whose lives were saved by an Ecollar.  I'll help you by supplying the links.  Please note the so-called positive methods that were tried on Roma before the Ecollar was used. 

http://loucastle.com/roma.htm

http://loucastle.com/simon.htm


That's great and as long as you're happy with your results, so am I.  I can't tell you how many times people have argued with me on this topic only to send me an email that starts "HELP, I need an Ecollar!" when they get the right (wrong for their methods) dog. 


He's from clipart, I have no idea how he was trained.  He looks like a typical Rottie to me.  The JRT on the home page looks happy.  I wonder why you didn't ask if he was trained with an Ecollar?  LOL. 

But if you're looking for a dog that looks happy take a look at the article on "Crittering and Dog to Dog Aggression.  http://loucastle.com/critter.htm

At the bottom of the article there's some video of two dogs playing.  One of them used to be aggressive until his owner used my Crittering protocol to stop that behavior.  See if you can tell me which dog used to be aggressive.  Both dogs look plenty happy to me, but what do I know? 

You're quite right.  I started reading the thread, watched it fall into the toilet with the comments about wine and when finally, there was a real question posed, responded to it, completely forgetting about yours.  I'm sorry it took so long. 

But I find your attitude quite interesting.  Do you think that I (or anyone) owes you something?  You certainly act like it in this post.  You should consider yourself damn lucky that I, or anyone else, decided to respond to you at all.  You would have been satisfied with the nonsense that Joker gave you in his response, as wrong as it was. 



Great.  Do someone a favor, spend some energy trying to educate someone when they ask a question and the response is, "You didn't do it fast enough" and then call me a name. 

Oh well.  You're welcome. 

Seddie if you knew anything about Ecollars you'd know that "avoidance behavior" is not the same thing as "avoidance training." 

"Avoidance training" is jargon that's used in Ecollar work.  It has nothing to do with "avoidance behavior." 


He avoids the stim by complying with the command. 


If a pet owner can't be consistent with an Ecollar then other forms of training won't work for him either; or have you overlooked that little fact? 

As far as "impeccable timing" being necessary, it's a myth.  If a person can clap their hands and stomp their foot at the same time, they can use an Ecollar.  Anyone who can dance, even a little, can use an Ecollar.  Perfect timing means that training goes very fast but even the best professional trainer doesn't have perfect timing all day long. 

Timing is more important with so-called positive methods than with an Ecollar, something that's already been explained. 

Lou hunny (i call everyone hunny...get used to it, it puts a bit of lightend atmostphere into my posts...) I do admire the way you answer everyone but is there any need to to pick quotes and tear them apart? by that i mean, you took my post and split it up then kept saying "still confused...still confused" I mean I'm hardly going to become unconfused in a post i've already written!

Anyway, you have a good day now, and we'll get some more wine out and wait to see what you've got to say next.... oh and BTW, I know a great deal more about ecollars now, than i did before Maddie started this thread...

lol  :grin: :-D I just lose interest when it's all quotes because it feels like i'm reading posts over and over and over and over again.........................I can't even do quotes !!!!!!
I'm probably missing loads of interesting facts  :grin:

So do I, and I am grateful for that, but I really feel that K9's excellent summary back on page 9 should have drawn the line under this debate.

The 'wine game' has been contemptuously described as 'silly', but, as displacement activity it has merely been run counter to the other game being played - namely one-upmanship, and, for me at least it has brought relief from the discomfort caused by such passages as   
The debate became, long ago, far too personal, uncivilised, and humourless.

Before it started I hated wine, but I think I've acquired the taste, along with the more welcome education on the use of the e-collar. So here's to the next tipple and disrespect point  :P.   

I have seen a beautiful GSD have one used on him, and hope I never see again what I saw that day.  It was used in a very cruel way and the dog eventually paid with his life he was so screwed up by this owner, the e collar was the last resort.

Lou


Yes, I do want e collars controlled and idiots not being able to get hold of them, watching a dog being punished with one is a terrible experience.  I stopped her right away but that didn't help the dog when I wasn't there.   All gadgets are good in the right hands, but in the wrong hands can do a lot of damage.  2 of my dogs have neck damage because of flat collars and in Joe's case, it could have been a choke chain. 

I have no problem with them being used on humans to keep them under contol, many of then need it and it may help empty our prisons and teach the yobs how to behave :lol:

So you are calling me a lier, would you like to come and put a TENs machine on me and see what happens?  That is what you are saying, you are saying that you know more about something you haven't experienced than someone who has experienced it.   I also know others who feel pain with a TENs machine, are they lying as well?



Are you denying that you posted this Lou? 

 

or this.

you are saying you know more than someone who has experienced it for themselves.  These words speak for themselves, I don't need to add to them :lol:


No Lou, it isn't me that is the liar, them most consistant part of our posts is the way they are so inconsistant, you put in things to suit what you want then deny them later. 





Of course they have asked not to be identified because they don't exist (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v312/Nethertumbleweed/chuffed.gif)



 

Of course they are not any of those, they can't be because they don't exist (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v312/Nethertumbleweed/rofl.gif)

 

No dear, it doesn't imply all rescues, it is a general "yours" and doesn't mean all of them, just quite a lot.

 

No dear I didn't miss the point, you said in an earlier post that I could have taught Joe a good recall in 2 ot 3 weeks with an e collar, in fact, I taught him a very good recall in 10 days without an e collar, so I think my way is quicker.  If I had said I had a 90% recall off Joe, that was in 3 days but I prefer the 99% recall in 10 days.   I forgot to say, that was when he was also chasing a rabbit.





Training was started as soon as she stopped running, she learnt a lot quicker because the running stopped in her time and her recall took me 2 days to get a 99% recall.  Training any younster whether dog, child, horse etc, when they are full of energy is asking for the training to fail, much better to get rid of the energy first.



Now were did I say her running was out of control, I didn't, all I said was she was running.   Putting words that are not there again Lou?   You are trying to read between the lines and getting it wrong as you normally do.





Check back, it wasn't me who started to discuss wine and if that is what the members want to discuss, then why stop them.   Denis was discussing Horlicks so why on discuss wine.





No Lou I didn't say breeders, there are some very good breeders about and I wouldn't want to stop them from breeding, it is the back yard breeders and the puppy farms that need stopping, and if they didn't churn out the puppies they did, people couldn't buy them to chuck then out a few months later.  Once again you are putting words that are not there and twisting the meanings.





I don't read the posts that are put up about e collars, which is what is boring as you know, but again you are putting things that are not there.   I don't really care about your feelings but do enjoy taking the Michael.  (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v312/Nethertumbleweed/happy10.gif)

Sometimes there are quite a lot of posts between the one you are replying to and when you reply and if others are like me, I find it helpful because the quotes remind me what has been said.   I don't often read the full quote, just enough to remind me.

To do quotes, just click on the box that says "Quote" at the top right of everyone's post, it will come into the box at the bottom of the page and you reply after the writing already in there.

I hope you can understand that, not sure I can. :lol:

I'll try after a couple of stiff vodkas I think   :grin: :-D

http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/Shockcollars/
Becky

Actually what it does is to make you look overly familiar with people that you don't know at all.  And you don't call everyone "hunny."  In the approximately half dozen posts that you've written in this thread you haven't called anyone else by that not-so-cute name.  


Thanks.  


Months from now when someone reads this post they'll know exactly what my comments are responding to because I've quoted your post back to you and then answered it point-by-point.  



Well that's good.  I suggested some reading for you.  Did you have the time (and/or the inclination) to get to it?  Can you tell which "happy dog" in the video was formerly aggressive?  What did you think of the articles about the "sensitive" dogs Roma and Simon?  

Don’t be greedy, you have already got 4 people from here (some passing through)
Radical minority group needs your help, link below.
http://www.petfriendlyworld.com/chat/index.php?topic=7038.0

Support needed for six year old petition, six years and only 1,400 sigs – please help them.
http://www.petitiononline.com/mod_perl/signed.cgi?collars&1

Hello, Choccielab,

Emmy missed the important bit out  :lol:. When you've clicked on 'quote' and got up the post that you want to quote from, delete everything from it except the bit that you want to quote, and then carry on with your own comments.

If it's still not clear, try again when the vodka's worn off :roll:.

Ooh, I think I've just discovered another way to do it! Put the word 'quote' into square brackets. Highlight and paste after this the words you want to quote. Then put the word '/quote' in square brackets after it.

But only if you must.    

The wine conversation started immediately after the OP asked the very first question, the one that started this thread.  There was no "one-upmanship" going on. 


If you're just now realizing this you're new to the discussion.  The same thing has been going on for years.  People who are opposed to the use of the Ecollar insult, demean, commit personal attacks including name calling and otherwise abuse those of us who use and support them.  They're ALWAYS the ones who take the conversation down that road.  Don't blame us when we respond in kind.  I try to stay polite and professional but I'm not perfect and sometimes I respond with the same kind of nastiness that's directed at me.  But it's ALWAYS in response to someone else starting it. 

Earlier I wrote:


Some people want government controls on everything.  They want to live in a "nanny state" where everything is controlled and every one is "safe."  It's a convenient way to abrogate their responsibilities.  Let someone else take responsibility for their life. 


I'm sure that you're aware that there are laws on the books now that prohibit abusing animals.  If you saw a dog being abused it's your responsibility to call the police and report them.  If the abuser didn't have an Ecollar they'd use a stick, a fist or their boot.  But this is just common sense. 

You oppose BSL (Breed specific legislation) and wanting Ecollars banned is very much the same sort of thing.  In your signature line is the phrase "Blame the deed not the breed."  Blaming an inanimate object for its misuse by a very small group is the same thing as blaming a breed for the problems that a few cause.  As with BSL the individual should be punished for using the tool to abuse the dog. 

ooooooo have i done it ????????  :???:

 :grin: :-D :grin: :-D

Ok first of all Lou...I am greatful for all the replies which ive already said...Just thought id point that one out incase you missed it.

I called you a prat not because you took your time in replying far from it.... But because the way you go about everything and not willing to listen or except others views....Thats why! and if you again read it properly you would have knew what i ment...
















 

Is that why you called me a liar Lou?  I may have thought it but I didn't write it down in here, you did.  You even wrote the word down and didn't leave it to the reader's imagination.  As far as I am concerned, you have done your best to insult, demean, commit a personal attack on me by calling me a liar.  I think like Denis, you need a cup of Horlicks(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v312/Nethertumbleweed/cheers.gif)

 :lol: :lol: :lol:

 

The full post Lou is:

Yes, I do want e collars controlled and idiots not being able to get hold of them, watching a dog being punished with one is a terrible experience.  I stopped her right away but that didn't help the dog when I wasn't there.   All gadgets are good in the right hands, but in the wrong hands can do a lot of damage.  2 of my dogs have neck damage because of flat collars and in Joe's case, it could have been a choke chain. 

I have no problem with them being used on humans to keep them under contol, many of then need it and it may help empty our prisons and teach the yobs how to behave

Take notice, I said CONTROLLED and not banned, there is a big difference there and when the full post is up, it looks different to the way you have cut it.






How do you know I didn't do this, you are just presuming that I didn't, in fact you haven't a clue on what happened only what I have told you.  Once again you are adding 2 & 2 and making 5.



Scraping the barrel now Lou, you are now attacking my signature but I forgot, because you say you have friends in high places that tell you things, we are supposed to believe you.  (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v312/Nethertumbleweed/happy10.gif)


I still remember the first time I did it, I was so pleased :-D

There not illegal yet but will be soon

Lou, can I ask which UK shelter or pound supports the use of e collars? The biggest animal charity in the UK, the RSPCA aswell as the Dogs Trust, The PDSA and the Dogs Home Battersea, to mention but a few are all strongly opposed to the ecollar. I have spoken to two managers for the RSPCA today on this subject, he said that when the animal welfare act is passed the charity would be pushing to add a ban on the ecollar.

Can I ask Denis and Lou, have you ever come across a dog where an ecollar simply wouldnt work?

Denis
I have come across plenty which an e-collar would be a pointless waste of money but like all training aids it is the owner and dog combination that have to be matched.

Hundreds of thousands of dogs simply do not need much obedience training at (guide dogs being a prime example) all but of those which would benefit from a formal obedience course the majority will benefit from an e-collar being added as a training aid.

s far as "would not work", they will not work at the point of action of an aggressive incident if both dogs are fighting, they might if one is attacking another and the other is not fighting back.

Denis
As you probaly know I was in on this in 2002, a crucial point. That was the point in time when they had a chance – almost no pet dog owner in the UK knew anything at all about e-collars, there were some anti barks starting to be used and that year app 850 invisble fences were sold in the 12 months preceding Aug 2002 that was an increase of around 100 on the 12 months preceding aug 2002.

Pet dog owners started to learn about them over the next 2 years or so, they became more and more collar literate whilst KC, The Dogs Trust etc simply kept repeating stories of collars obsolete some 20 years before.

To cut a long story short, there are at least over 1 million collars have been sold into the UK and most would agree that the figure is more like 1.5 million – it does not matter what RSPCA or anyone else says, e-collars have loads of support and so far they have come up with absolutely nothing and neither The Dogs Trust or the RSPCA have anything to do with peoples dogs – maybe you could call the RSPCA again and ask why they have not attempted to prosecute anyone –

As I keep saying, hidden agenda exists and make no mistake, the bits and pieces of info I let out online is nothing to what I know and could support, which I would do, if needed, but  it’s not needed yet.

No not really.  ROFL. 


I've never said that I know more about a TENS machine than you do.  It's a personal experience and simple common sense (which some seem to lack) would tell you that I can't possibly know your personal experience.  But I HAVE spoken to many people at the moment that TENS machines were being used on them.  And I've spoken go about a dozen very experienced PT techs about them.  Just like Ecollars, at the very lowest level they don't emit any stim.  But you tell us that this causes you "pain."  And so I'm quite skeptical about your claim. 


At higher levels I'll attest that a TENS machine (and an Ecollar) can cause quite a lot of pain.  But what I've been talking about all along is what happens at the lowest levels, the level where people first feel it.  You say that it causes pain.  I think that you're exaggerating, just like the woman at my seminar who screamed in "pain" before the button was even pressed. 

Earlier I wrote:
And this:

Certainly not Emmy. 

Earlier I wrote:  



Nope not that either. 


Read it again Emmy.  NOWHERE does it say what you've tried to attribute to me; that I know more about it than someone who has experienced it for themselves.  I do say that I doubt that you're being completely honest about your experience.  That's not the same thing at all.  I hope it's clear now.   

Earlier Emmy wrote:

And I responded:

I've noticed, and I confident that others have as well that instead of bringing proof to this conversation you merely repeat your statement.  Show us the quotes where I'm inconsistent Emmy.  Otherwise you're still a liar. 

Earlier Emmy wrote:

And I responded: 


Of course they don't Emmy.  Neither do I.  I'm just a figment of your imagination . . . I wonder, how can someone who doesn't exist, ask not to be identified?  ROFLMAO

Earlier I wrote:  


I'm not Joker's "hunny" and I'm not your "dear."  LOL. 


Your writing clearly means "all" not "quite a lot."  ROFL. 

 


Still not your "dear."  LOL


You missed it by a mile, a couple of times now. 


You still have the opportunity to make $1000 for 99% efficiency.  I've notice that you didn't respond to my challenge.  I doubt that your recall is as good as you'd like to pretend. 


Of course it is Emmy.  You could shut me up for good by simply accepting my challenge.  The risk is all mine, my time, my money.  Yet you conveniently pretend that this challenge hasn't been issued and even modified especially for you!  So it's obvious that you're lying about how good your dog's recall is. 


I see no point in letting her run for two days. 


Just an opinion.  And one I don't happen to agree with. 


Odd, earlier you wrote that it took you ten days to get a 99% recall.  But now you say that it took two days.  Are you talking about two different dogs? 


WHAT NONSENSE!  If have too much energy was a problem then the appropriate response would be to let her burn some off and then, in the same session, start training.  Letting her run for two days is a waste of two days. 

In any case it's apparent that you're incapable of (at least with this dog) of working with her unless she's burned off her excess energy.  I like dogs to be full of energy when I work with them.  It does several things.  Since the dog is fresh and full of energy, he can be worked longer at a higher intensity.  More can be done.  More can be accomplished.  I like to keep sessions short, dogs learn better when this is done but when the dog is highly energized it lets me train for just a little longer.  I'm sorry that your methods are so ineffective that they can't be used on a dog that has energy to burn. 

It also teaches the dog to focus, no matter how energized he is.  Dogs are best trained, especially if they have some working purpose, both when they're fresh and when they're tired.  Then they learn to work, no matter how they feel.  When your dog is running towards the street and you call him, it shouldn’t make any difference if he's tired or if he's full of energy. 

But apparently you need to burn off energy for your methods to work.  If they were more effective this wouldn't be the case. 


I never said that you started the wine discussion but you certainly contributed to it and you still are. 


ROFL.  Look at the title of the thread.  [b"]E Collars?" [/b] Look at the title of this section of the forum "General DOG Chat." I realize that every thread diverges from it's intended topic at times but this went on for several pages and it still continues.  It doesn't bother me but it will interfere with anyone who's trying to learn something about Ecollars.  I think that's at least part of the reason that you folks do it. 

Earlier Emmy wrote

And I responded


OK it's the back yard breeders and puppy farms.  Wait . . . . Aren't they "breeders?  Oh well. Have it your way.  LOL. 


Actually that would be omitting words.  ROFL. 


No, you're wrong,  THEY'RE FASCINATING!  LMAO. 

Thanks.  I don't know about everyone else but sometimes I spend hours answering people's questions.  Your comment seemed a bit ungrateful but now I know that's not the case. 


Max I do listen to the views of others.  But I've been training dogs for nearly 30 years and rarely these days do I hear anything new.  So when someone repeats something I've previously examined and discarded I see no need to accept it.  And since this conversation is about Ecollars, something I've been using for nearly two decades, there isn't much that someone who's never used one can teach me. 

Ok youve been training dogs since ive been born....So lets agree to disagree on this one.... ;)

You expect me to accept your challenge but you won't accept mine.  (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v312/Nethertumbleweed/rofl.gif)






Twisting words again Lou,  my words were "you are saying that you know more about something you haven't experienced than someone who has experienced it"

Although a TENs machine is supposed to take the pain away, with somepeople it makes the pain worse.  When I was asked to try a TENs machine I was told about this so it isn't new, this was 6 years ago.  So you now seem to know more that my physiotherapist. You can be a skeptical as you want, you don't matter. (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v312/Nethertumbleweed/nono.gif)






No dear, at the lowest level, with some people it makes the pain worse.



Nobody can speak for others, and just because you went to physiotherapy, doesn't mean that you know all about it which is what you are putting.  




No it isn't the first time you have heard of this, I posted this up at least 2 years ago and you called me a liar then as well.  



You can have what you want in the way of skepticism dear, it doesn't really affect me.






I didn't have to dear, you done that yourself. (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v312/Nethertumbleweed/jump1.gif)









I don't need to, others are quite capable of seeing through you dear.










If you say so dear, I do wonder if you are a figment of my imagination sometimes then find out that others have also read the rubbish you are putting out.


  
Don't need to weasel out, the other members know and understand what I mean, and you don't matter.






Of course you are my "dear"






You are now telling me what is in my brain now, you obviously don't understand the general (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v312/Nethertumbleweed/rofl.gif)



No dear, I haven't missed the point, why mix a dog up by trying different methods, dogs learn much quicker if the trainer is consistant.
  





Of course you are.




 

No dear, it is you that is missing the point by a mile.






I had forgotten about this because it is so long since I saw it, but as you won't accept my challenge, then you can't expect me to accept yours.






I have already said why dear.




 

I never mentioned 2 days, once again you are putting words were there isn't any.  






Who care if you agree with it or not, I certainly don't.  My way worked for her and that is what matters.





Sorry that is a typing error,  it took 2 days to get a 90% recall, and 10 days to get a 99% recall.  





Who mentioned 2 days dear, it wasn't me, again a figment of your imagination.  I did say I let her run, but when you are living with a dog, every time you interact with them is a form of training.  that is all I wanted from her until she settled enough to stop running.



Resorting to insults again dear.  You don't know me so don't know what I am capable of.  



That depends on the energy, you can't train a tired dog the same as you can train a fresh dog, but nether can a hyper dog be trained successfully and she was hyper.   An 8 month old collie cross that has been stuck in a crate for several months and fed on rubbish has other needs before training sessions, eg a change of food to one more suitable.

 

She isn't a working dog, she is a pet and always will be.  She would have made a good agility dog if her back legs hadn't been broken and set crooked.



As I said a little higher up dear, it depends on the energy, she was hyper and a hyper dog doesn't stop long enough to listen.  Sort out the food first and let them get rid of they hyper, then you can start to train.  






Of course I did and still am dear, it is fun.   Would you like some of Bill's 1994 elderberry wine?  I it lovely wine (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v312/Nethertumbleweed/happy10.gif)






So you have remembered that, good, but why stop people from having fun, only old foggies do that. (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v312/Nethertumbleweed/grouchy.gif)













Scraping the barrel again dear (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v312/Nethertumbleweed/rofl.gif)




Why do you think the members are talking about wine?  If e collars were interesting they wouldn't need to.   Just because they are interesting to you, doesn't mean they are interesting to everyone else.   A lot of the members have made it clear that it is boring.

It's not the length of time anyone as been training and 'training' is a vague term - in Lou's case it is the levl of dog and the coresponding level of obedience needed for those dogs which are the significant early factors in his background - since then he has trained all kinds of pet dogs and SAR dogs.

 It is the quality of training and the demands of the dog which are very probably the most important factors. Because of the nature and level of working requirement Lou would have learned more in his first 6 months than most in their lifetimes. I have seen kids in Germany around 11 year old who have trained Dobes (not like the Dobes here) to as high as Sch 1, although they were to young to enter the test, and, one thing you may be overlooking without realising it is the fact that you are not exposed to much in terms of well trained dog which would also be a nightmare if it were not for the training and you are speaking, inadvertantly, from a lack of exposure to such things.

good grief :roll:!!!!! This is a dog forum not parliament now where's my glass of wine gone???????  :P

ORDER! ORDER! :evil:

If this is a parliament I am totally up for handing out honours for cash (allegedly)

 :lol: :lol: :lol:

Emmy I called you a liar because you lied.  It wasn't just that you were mistaken; you lied.  A couple of times when you got caught, instead of merely saying that you had been wrong, you tried to support your lie.  I only called you a liar after you had told a couple of lies and then refused to admit it.  Again, a counter-attack rather than an attack, as were your comments.  

You've said that I don't answer every question that's put to me.  Yet when I asked you to show me one that I hadn't answered, you failed to do so.  

You said that I, ". . . put (Ecollars) on a dog right away to train them so don't wait to see if other methods don't work."  Yet when I asked for you to quote me on that, the request went unanswered.  That's because I've never said anything of the kind.  It's a lie.  

You said, " . . . , according to what you have said, you know everything about this country."  Another lie and another request for you to quote me that went unanswered.  

You wrote, "the most consistant part of our posts is the way they are so inconsistant, you put in things to suit what you want then deny them later."  Another lie and another request for a quote that you didn't respond to.  

When Jason asked about how I train you wrote, "Lou doesn't consider any other training" (than the Ecollar).  That's a lie, as I've pointed out before.  

You'll want to tell us again how "It is only a lie if I didn't know any difference" But that statement is itself a lie.  It's the kind of lie that a child will use to try and stay out of trouble.  Bit it wouldn't save a child and it won't save you.  A question was asked of me and in your zeal and haste to show me up you decided to answer for both Denis and I, pretending that you had some idea of what we do.  You were proven wrong repeatedly.  

You made statements about both Denis and I and now you're saying that you didn't know they weren't the truth.  You want to skirt around the edge of the truth but I'm not going to let that happen.  


That's because it's a pattern with you.  


Since it's the truth, I'm merely pointing out a fact.  

The difference is slight.  Either way, since you've told us that you've seen a dog abused with one I wonder what action you took?  Did you call the police.  Did you make a private persons arrest (Not even sure if they have that in the UK).  Did you testify against that person. 

Earlier you wrote,

So it sounds as if you didn't follow through.  Is there some reason for this? 


Emmy you wrote then (and you even copied it back in this post saving me the trouble of going to find it) that what you did, "Stop(ping) her right away" would not "help the dog when (you) weren't there."  (Emphasis added.)

If you had taken action it would be reasonable to think that the person would have been jailed or at least have her Ecollar seized by the police as evidence, thereby saving the dog from further pain. 

But in any case, did you do anything beyond what you've told us? 

Earlier I wrote:


I’m not attacking anything Emmy.  I merely compared BSL, which you oppose so strongly that you have it in your signature line, to the banning of Ecollars.  They're very similar.  Some people want to ban a breed of dog because of the bad actions of a few.  And some people want to ban (or restrict) Ecollars because of the bad actions of a few.  They're nearly identical! 


You're not making much sense here Emmy.  What does the fact that I have "friends in high places" (your words, not mine) have to do with the fact that BSL and the desire to ban or restrict Ecollars are analogous? 

Kerrie what I said was that the directors of three shelters in the UK have told me that "they'd like to use Ecollars on the dogs in their shelters to make them more adoptable but given the political situation there, they can't." 

I can't give names or locations because they've asked (for obvious reasons) not to be identified.  Emmy thinks that means that they don't exist; that I'm making it up.  I really don't need to do anything of that nature.  As a police officer I used hundreds of confidential informants to make arrests, get search warrants and convict criminals.  I see no reason to make up something now. 



I'm sure he's out there somewhere but I have yet to come across him.

One would hope it's not the same dog he's been training since you was born, Maddie  :) :)

LOL......  :grin: :grin: "bottoms up"

Earlier Emmy wrote:

And I responded


It sounded more like an invitation than a challenge.  And the thought of it made me a little sick to my stomach. 

Emmy quoted this in her post. 

And then she quoted me as responding to this comment. 

Now she quotes it back to me as if I had gotten it wrong when I originally quote her and responded to that statement.  She says that I "twisted" her "words" but as anyone can see, I quoted them perfectly. 




Actually there are at least two uses for a TENS.  One is to distract someone so that pain they're feeling is minimized.  It's used for this on chronic pain patients and some women have it used when they're delivering babies.  But there's another that Emmy doesn’t seem to know about, based on her statement.  It's used to stimulate circulation and muscle growth in injured tissues.  As used in the first case the levels are usually fairly high.  Used in the second case the level is adjusted so that it's "just below" where it's painful. 


Aww gee Emmy.  Now my feelings are hurt.  I'm gonna go cry myself to sleep.  ROFLMAO. 



Earlier I wrote:

Sue they can if they've carefully interview them about their experiences.  LOL. 


Please quote back where I said that I know all about TENS machines.  Failing that AGAIN you're a liar. 


Well at least I'm consistent, contrary to what you keep saying.  In any case, I can hardly remember what I said two years ago, much less something you said.  LOL. 


Of course it doesn't .  Liars don't care that they've been caught.  They just make up some new lie and continue on as if nothing has happened.  It's part of the pathology. 


Nah, more like a bad dream that keeps coming back over and over and over and . . . .


You're the liar putting out the rubbish. 


yes, they do understand that you're a liar. 


And yet you keep responding.  ROFL. 


Emmy I doubt that anyone understands what is in your brain.  In any case, I'm telling you what you wrote, not what you meant to write. 


Only if the methods work.  BTW I notice that you keep telling us how reliable your dog is yet you haven't accept the offer of $1,000 to prove it.  I wonder why that is?  Don't worry, we all know why you keep ignoring my challenge.  ROFL. 


What an intelligent conversation this has become.  NO. YOU'RE MISSING THE POINT BY A MILE. YOU YOU YOU YOU YOU YOU YOU YOU INFINITY.  This is like talking with a six year old. 

Earlier I wrote:


I can understand that, it's been such a long time (two days) since I challenged you.  Great memory there.  LOL



Your was an invitation, rather than a challenge and a pretty slutty one at that.  I'll pass. All sexual innuendoes aside.  Mine is real.  Real money.  Real challenge.  Tell ya what, I'll raise the ante to $2,000 just for you.  The rest of the challenge remains the same. 

Mine has you winning $2,000, unless of course you're lying.  Yours has . . . Well just exactly what does it have, except the disgusting thought of putting adhesive conducting pads on your skin.  YUCK! 

Earlier I wrote:  


I've said this before and you didn't correct me.  How long did you let the dog run to burn off energy before you started the training? 




I do.  And that's enough for me.  Emmy, a quick couple of questions.  Can you remind me how many dogs you've trained?  What they've been trained for? What OB titles (or any other kind of title) you've achieved? 


No problem, we all make those at times.  But let me refer you to the challenge that you've "conveniently forgotten.  It's now valued at $2,000. 

http://www.petfriendlyworld.com/chat/index.php?topic=7129.msg59902#msg59902



Perhaps.  I've asked for clarification. 


THE CHAMPION (of begging the question) SCORES ANOTHER KNOCKOUT!  Yes, we all know that anytime you're in your dog's presence training is going on even if the person don't think he's training BUT just being in the dog's presence and not working on anything isn't training for the recall.  If it was, anyone who just spent time with their dog would have a perfect recall in the face of any distraction. 




The truth hurts don't it?  LOL


Please explain the difference. 


Sure they can.  Probably what you mean to say is that you're not capable of it.  I do it quite frequently.  I don't have the time to wait for a dog to calm down at a seminar or when I’m getting paid by the hour. 


Just more excuses.  If an owner waited for everything to be "just so" few dogs would ever get trained. 


So what!  When a police dog is headed towards the wrong person to bite them and his handler gives a recall command, the dog should obey as quickly as the dog is physically capable of it.  When a pet is running towards a busy street and the handler gives a recall command the result should be the same.  The excuse "she's just a pet" is lame and used by those who aren't capable of getting reliability.  If you were, you'd be jumping at the prospect of shutting me up and getting $2,000 richer at the same time. 


What you mean is "then YOU can start to train."  I'd have started just about as soon as I got her. 

Earlier I wrote:


If that's where the opposition lives, that's where I'll go. 


The members?  Only a few of them are still talking about wine once we get past the nonsense first couple of pages.  And you seem to now be leading the charge.  Go ahead, doesn't bother me.  Those who come after will decide how valuable it is. 


Of course the 936 views of this topic are because of the fascinating discussion about wine.  Of course it is.  Just keep repeating that to yourself Emmy.  ROFLMAO. 


How many is "a lot" Emmy.  There are over 7,000 members of this forum.  Not even 0.0001% have said anything at all, much less that they think this is boring.  AGAIN you seem to think that you speak for everyone.  ROFL. 

Denis
You mean around 2-3 members who pop up with the odd irrelevant comment - there is 947 readings at the moment according to you the 2 or 3 are the majority of them.

Also, these well trained dogs you keep mentioning did not exist 2 years ago, Joe took 4 years to recall ( everyones ideal ) according to your posts of 2002/3 & 4 you could put him in a down stay from a mid air leap at a rabbit or other game.

Suddenly, when Tommy died in 2004 or 5, you came back on here looking for a trainer to help because Joe simply ignored you after Tommy died, that was according to you in 2004 or 5, because he had simply followed Tommy for years and when she came back to you he came with her, I gave you a trainer in Rotherham, you could not get there, you said you could not get to your friend in Barnsley for more training with Joe because you could not leae the house for long enough periods.....sort of contradictory don't you think.

C'mon guys...this is turning into petty squabbles....  :roll: :roll:
Take a chill pill and relax....

How do you do that?? Did you do 100 recalls one day and he came 90 times, then after 10 days you did 100 recalls and he came 99 times?? :mrgreen: :mrgreen:


I suggest you buy a book like Gottfried Dildei's 'Obedience in Drive' - the whole point is to harness that energy!







What a strange comment! You obviously do read and respond to posts regarding e-collars. For wine, I suggest you try the forum on this site http://www.wine-pages.com/ (it's very good!).

it took me 5minutes to train my dog to wait, while i threw her ball...wait for it to stop moving, then release her to fetch it... similarly she taught herself to fetch a scent rag, by watching the other dogs in class do it...including her pal... (we had tried to do it the week before, but didn't really know what was expected..) we are now learning to do a partial recall.....

My dog is dead brainy!!  :grin: :grin: :grin:

The problem with dogs, Joker, is that just when you think you have something sorted, they will make you look stupid (and the brainy ones are the worst for this)!  :mrgreen: :mrgreen: Please report back when your dog has made a fool of you :lol:

One of the problems that comes up in these conversations is what various people call "trained" meaning that their dog has "learned" a behavior.  I had one poster tell me that he "trained" his dog to sit in 5 minutes.  What he meant was that it took him 5 minutes in his living room, where there are no distractions, to get his dog to sit on a voice command for a treat. 

He realized that this would not transfer to anywhere in the real world where distractions are present, yet he used the word "trained" in referring to this and said that his dog had "learned" to sit on command.  Many people will make this kind of comment and unless questioned about it, will let it hang as if this was "real-world" training.  More than likely, unless this "training" was repeated, the dog would not remember it a week later. 

To me "trained" means that the dog will reliably perform the command at any distance from the handler where he can hear the command, or see a hand signal, no matter what distraction is present. 

With these widely differing definitions of trained in use it's no wonder that often we disagree.  I always come back to the question of how happy would you be with your "training" if your child "learned" a behavior, balancing a checkbook for example, if it could only be done in the living room with no distractions present?  Why should one definition of "learning" apply to dogs and another to people? 

This is the sort of "begging the question" that some people engage in with great regularity. 

This is true, a dog is only "trained" if it has become the Martini Dog, ie any time, any place, anywhere...........  :mrgreen:

 :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :mrgreen: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

A child is 'trained' to make shapes on paper with a marker pen for the first time, mother is delighted because the child has been trained. Mom goes to fridge to get an ice cream reward and make a milk shake - mom comes back to find clever child has drawn shapes on carpet and walls - mom calls adoption agency to collect said child and eats ice cream herself

In this case the child has been "taught" not "trained" IMHO there is a very big difference!

Apart from semantics what's the difference?

Oh for goodness sake...how big is your living room, Lou, Denis, IJF, Smokeybear...Mine isn't big enough to warrant throwing a ball in...so yes ofcourse I have trained her to do this action in a feild/park/woods/open space...with plenty of distractions around her.... example..other dogs/horses/birds etc...

You see i may know F all about ecollars but i have a every good trainer and yes i really did train her for this in 5mins...like I said...she's a brainy dog!!

IJF - please hold your breath for her to make a fool of me.... I would be very interested in seeing the colour of your face if that should ever happen!! oh and just for the record...We did this excersize last summer, in a feild full of horses.... she's never forgotten it, and have shown many people at random times that she can do it.....

She is very much a "Martini Dog"  :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

And please stop making references between children and dogs..... many people would never treat thier dog, the way the treat their child.....  :evil: :evil:

Can I make an appointment with you Joker so that you can train my dogs?

I have never trained something in 5 days let alone 5 mins.

Where do you live, I will come right over!  :D

I have often been made a fool of by my dogs and expect that will continue for years to come! :D

If you don't like looking foolish do not work with dogs/animals/become a parent and do not make claims that cannot be substantiated.

I tend to find the very intelligent dogs are always testing their handlers just in case they can get away with something........ but then again maybe I am an inferior owner/handler/trainer......... I think I can live with that!  :mrgreen:

Smokeybear - Do not tell me what I can and can't do.... it's not polite.

if your dogs make a fool of you... that's your problem*, but if i have a dog that's exceptionally clever, why should that be a problem to you? why not just accept what i say and not call me a liar... you don't know me....

maybe my commands are stronger than yours?

* I'm sure there are people out there who will offer you help. I would, but am probably too far away, sadly.

and perhaps if you are having probs, and dogs making a fool of you (on a regular basis), then perhaps it's time to give up?

I do not have a problem with dogs making a fool of me, thanks for the advice Joker but I think I will struggle on with my sub standard training ........... (ROFLMAO) I am not sure how I have managed so far with my dogs, must be just lucky I guess ! 

Still it is true that I have yet to get a title/qualified in Obedience with one of my current dogs, bit of a drag really when she has done so well in the show ring, schutzhund, Working Trials, agility, gundog tests of work, PAT dog, etc etc etc maybe it is time to give up!!!!!!!!!!!

Oh dear Lou, I have rattled your cage, (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v312/Nethertumbleweed/handbag.gif) at dawn.  When people call some one a liar as often as you do, it is because they are trying to convince themselves that it is the other person who is lying and not themselves.  Doesn't do any good to lie to yourself Lou.  (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v312/Nethertumbleweed/Kissey20Smiley20gif.gif)




No dear, there is a big difference,

Control:  - restraining or regulating

Banned  -  To forbid officially

See, there is quite a difference  (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v312/Nethertumbleweed/6wink.gif)


Who cares if you wonder what action I took or not, only myself and the person involved know what action I took and I certainly will not put it up on a public board.   You are assuming that I didn't take any action, once again putting things that are not there.



Why do you want to know?  It has nothing to do with you and for all you know, I can't say because it can jepodise the case.  You really are a silly man at times, as an ex police man you should know that putting things up on an open forum can jepodise the case.



Thats right, there are other ways of abusing a dog as well as an e collar and I suspect that other things were happening to this dog.  When/if the dog was taken off her, then the abuse stops and not before even though she has been told about it.  All you know is what I have writted but once again you have put things in that are not there.



All you know is what I have told you, you don't know what happened or what I did, once again you are adding 2 + 2 to make 5   I think you had better learn how to count Lou.(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v312/Nethertumbleweed/Kissey20Smiley20gif.gif)



Where have I said I wanted e collars banned?  Controlled yes.  Scraping the barrel again dear.



Another quote taken out of context and a change of subject.  That hole you are digging for yourself is getting rather deap Lou, please make sure the sides don't colapse or it will be (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v312/Nethertumbleweed/bonvoyage.gif)



That is your evil imagination dear, I didn't say were it was going to be put, please be careful with that hole you are digging.



No dear you didn't quote them perfectly you twisted them and you twist everything that doesn't agree with you.  I speak from experience, you speak from what you have been told.  (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v312/Nethertumbleweed/happy10.gif)



Now were did I say I didn't know it had 2 uses, dear dear, you are getting your knickers in a twist Lou.   The level to treat chronic pain has to be at a level the patient can cope with, in my case, the lowest level I couldn't cope with because it made my pain worse and didn't minimize it.  This does happen but as you can only go by what you are told, you don't even know what it feels like.(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v312/Nethertumbleweed/Kissey20Smiley20gif.gif)



I do remember when people call me a liar, and for someone who says that he never starts the name calling, I think you must have some loss of memory somewhere.



It was noted some time ago that you were doing this dear, in fact, you have done this so many times, I lost count some time ago.



Sticks and stones and all that, (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v312/Nethertumbleweed/rofl.gif)







More sticks and stones Lou, is this the best you can do dear (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v312/Nethertumbleweed/rofl.gif)




Of course, I am having fun taking the Michael out of you and you keep coming back for more.  (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v312/Nethertumbleweed/rofl.gif)



You won't accept my challenge but expect me to accept yours.  



Ah!!  Now things are making sense, you are only six years old, silly me, I thought you were an adult.


No dear, that is your mind assuming were I was going to put the TENs machine, but as it goes on over your clothes, there is nothing slutty or sexual in it.  Quite a slutty mind for a 6 year old, in fact, quite a slutty mind for a 66 year old as well.(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v312/Nethertumbleweed/adamandeveit.gif)



As I have already put this up several times on this board, you can go and find out for yourself, it is what you say to me, so you can't object to me saying it to you.   You should only need to be corrected once not over and over again.



(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v312/Nethertumbleweed/nono.gif) I already know what dogs I have trained and what I have achieved, I don't need to see it up on here again, if you want to know, do a search (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v312/Nethertumbleweed/rofl.gif)

 

Let me refer you to the challenge you have conveniently forgotten, my challenge to you but you tried to turn it into something slutty and sexual to get out of it.  Money means nothing to me and never has or never will be an incentive to do something.  There are far more important things than money.  I help people and horses for free because they need the help and many are at the end of their tether before they find me.  No I am not rich in money, I am rich in the love of my family and friends

Oh dear!!!  Lou doesn't realise that you can start teaching the recall when you are working round the house or anything else for that matter.  Teaching this way, you are doing a lot of very short sessions and I have found it very successful.


I think it is rather funny dear that you are resorting to insults because you can't get to me any other way, but sticks and stones and all that (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v312/Nethertumbleweed/rofl.gif)

 

Oh dear Lou you are getting rather boring now, I didn't say I had to wait until she was just right, her food at to be changed first, she came straight out of a crate into a home after quiet a long journey.  Maybe you can work immediately after being incapacitated and a long journey but I prefter to take a gentler approach, but then, I am not doing it for money and don't need to show results to anyone but myself.



Don't fall of your chair in shock but I agree with this, but a busy street has to be there so that they can run towards it, I live in an area were I can get completely away for streets and don't have this problem but as I have said, she has a very good recall.



She doesn't need to be trained to the standard of a police dog except for recall, I don't need her to take a man down, she can't jump fences because of the damage to her back legs so can't be trained to do this.  She is a  pet dog and only need to be trained to what is requited of her.  She needs good manners and a good recall, she had neither when she came.



That depends on what you are doing, no, I didn't have training sessions with her until she stopped being hyper, she is still a very active little girl, but as I have put up earlier, just because you are not doing training sessions doesn't mean you are not doing anything.



How many members come to this forum?  You should be going by that and not by the membership, like most forums, most of the members don't come here for one reason or another.  It isn't that long ago when I couldn't come here to read the posts.

Oh well, looks like I'd better give up training! I am constantly cocking things up (I'm good at fixing them now!)and my dog makes me look stupid all the time.....

Joining in Denis, someone else I can take the Michael out of, it does relieve a boring day. (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v312/Nethertumbleweed/rofl.gif)

You have forgotten that everytime someone clicks onto this thread it registers a hit, now that could be the same person every time, but more like a handfull of people that are checking back to watch the fun. (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v312/Nethertumbleweed/11_9_12.gif)



Twisting words again Denis, it took me 4 years to find the key to Joe's recall, when I did, he was 99% reliable in 10 days.  Joe had been abused and was terrified of people.  Thanks to Gill White, I did find something that didn't have any association with his prevous life.

Suddenly, when Tommy died in 2004 or 5, you came back on here looking for a trainer to help because Joe simply ignored you after Tommy died, that was according to you in 2004 or 5, because he had simply followed Tommy for years and when she came back to you he came with her,

Twisting again Denis, Joe never followed Tommy back because I walked them seperately thanks to other people not controlling their dogs, I had to be in a postion to pick Joe up.  


No Honey, I couldn't leave Bill for long periods because I was his only carer and he wasn't safe to be left on his own because he was falling.  He deteriated so much that I wasn't even able to come on here which is why I was missing for so long.   I don't have that any more because Bill passed away last November which is why I can come back on here.



Someone else joining in now, The more that attack the more fun I can have.

 

This is getting to be a habit, I am agreeing with you again Lou (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v312/Nethertumbleweed/thumbup2.gif)

Thank you for a good afternoon's entertainment, Lou, Denis and IJF, I now have my dogs to see to but I will be back, probably tomorrow for another afternoon's entertainment (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v312/Nethertumbleweed/chuffed.gif)

Not sure where I 'attacked' you Emmy - just interested in statistics  :lol: :lol:

Well good on ya, Smokeybear.... No, really I mean it!  :grin: :grin:
I can't take my dog into a proper obidence class (competition - not that I ever said i could) because she is a cross breed and doesn't have papers... but we do well enough at fun classes.... :smile: :smile:

Why do i take her to training classes? well because i believe every dog, big or small should be trained to some level, and there's nothing worse than an Ankle biter.... or a boob biter for that matter

Incidently i hope to start doing agility with her soon...got any tips?

I've read this post and inbetween the arguing i have sort of got the idea. :roll:

we have electric frencing and when we go down to get the horses in the dogs come with us, they use to run under the fence and chase the horses.  But they use to catch the electric fencing they did not like it but it's not that pain full i've touched it my self,  after getting caught by it a few times they don't go in the field anymore and chase the horses.  So i guess if e collars work abit like that i would use one i found it very affective. :-)

I do not know where you got the idea that you cannot compete in Obedience competitions because your dog is a mongrel?

(Unless you are not in the UK)

Some of the top Obedience Champions in the UK have been cross breeds/mongrels!

Yep, I know the feeling... I too have horses...and dog has been caught twice with the electric fence..unfortunetly she nearly ran into the path of an oncoming car.... glad that car had good brakes...

Smokeybear - I did not know that mongrels are allowed in competition classes..I have been refused entry.. (I am in UK)

http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/cgi-bin/item.cgi?id=707

The Kennel Club has a breed register and an activity register.

Your dog must be registered on the breed register to compete in breed shows, field trials or gundog working tests.

For all other activities ie Heelwork to music, Working Trials, Obedience, Agility, Flyball etc ANY dog of ANY mixed parentage can participate as long as the registered with the KC on the acitivity register.

There are many Agility Champions, Working Trials Champions and Obedience Champions that are not purebred............

No, not at all.  You asked why I called you a liar so I showed everyone why by showing exact statements that you'd made and pointing out why they were lies.  It's something that I enjoy doing! 


ROFLMAO  Emmy I showed that you're a liar by quoting your own words back.  You keep calling me the liar but so far you have failed to show anything. 

Earlier I wrote:

Yes, I know.  That's why I asked.  You implied that this person was using an Ecollar to abuse a dog, something that we all know is against the law.  You said that you stopped her but in the same breath regretted that you couldn't do anything about "next time."  The reality is that you COULD do something about next time by brining the abuse to the attention of the police when you witnessed it. 

I simply asked if you did that or if you did anything at all. 


Why not?  You can omit the name of the person involved.  But this evasion of my questions leads us to believe that you did nothing of the sort. 


I'm not assuming anything Emmy.  I asked some questions that you've now acknowledged you read but have refused to answer.  I'd guess that's because you did nothing of the kind.  Feel free to prove me wrong.  I hope you will.  I hope you did follow through. 

Earlier I wrote:



Given your proven history of lying to make a point, I think you might be doing it again. 


I see.  Now you're hinting that you DID take some legal action.  Simply answering "Yes, I took action and notified the police" or "No, I didn't" won't jeopardize anything. 


What have I "put in that are not there?" 


Yes, I know.  That's why I asked.  Instead of a straight answer we're getting a run-around. 




The analogy still works. 

Earlier I wrote:


Nothing taken out of context Emmy.  The analogy still stands. 


Earlier I wrote:


It makes no difference Emmy.  The thought of putting them anywhere on your body sickens me.  YUCK. 

Earlier I wrote:


Another typical lie from you Emmy.  If you think I twisted your words quote "my twists" back.  Failing that, AGAIN you're a liar. 

Earlier I wrote:


You said:

You made no reference to the "other" use.  You omitted it from your description of what TENS are for.  And I didn't say that you "didn't know it had 2 uses" I clearly wrote that you "(don't) seem to know about based on (your) statement." 


I guess you missed the part where I said I'd had TENS used on me many hundreds of times. 


Feel free to post the first time that I started name calling.  I know that you're wrong in saying that I started it.  Bring the post here and then I'll go back from it and show that others started it. 


More lies.  Show us the post.  You won't because you know it's a lie. 



It's sufficient. 


You used a TENS "over your clothes!" I guess things are different in the UK.  My PTst says that there's too much impedance (interference) from the clothing, that the adhesive pads need to be applied directly to the skin.  Are you sure that you're talking about a TENS?  Perhaps this is the problem.  Perhaps a look at this site will fill you in. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transcutaneous_Electrical_Nerve_Stimulator

Here is some of the info that's there.  (Emphasis added.)

This site offers TENS accessories (electrodes) for sale.  Not one of them is intended to be used "over your clothes." 

http://www.bodyclock.net/acatalog/tenselectrodes.html

But perhaps you mean something else by your "over the clothes" statement.  Please let us know. 




Don't really care.  We've already established that any method that requires you to let a dog "calm down" is faulty.  I'd second the recommendation for you to read "Training in Drive." 

Earlier I wrote:


I'd hope that you would. 


No you don't. 


Not that important.  I'll just figure that you haven't done anything noteworthy.  Otherwise you'd be proud to tell us of your achievements again. 

 


My "Challenge" is clearly a challenge.  Yours was clearly an invitation.  Now you want to modify it.  That's fine but what's the point of putting a TENS on you?  To prove that it hurts you at the lowest level?  I have no doubt that you'd scream before it was even turned on, so what would that prove.  But even if you didn't, if you want us to believe that it hurts you at the lowest levels, that's fine.  So much for your challenge. 

OTOH my challenge will prove to all that your dog DOESN'T have a 99% recall as you've claimed.  I understand why you don't want to accept it.  And so do the rest of the members. 


Of course not Emmy we understand.  ROFLMAO. 


Imagine how much good you could do at the shelters and rescues with (I'll now raise the challenge to) $3,000. 

I well realize it Emmy but this isn't what you said.  All you said was
You said nothing about "teaching the recall when you are working round the house." 


Yeah yeah yeah.  The moon wasn't right, the cat ate your homework, and your shoelaces were too tight.  ROFL. 


Begging the question again.  LOL

Earlier I wrote:


And since you have a challenge before you that you keep avoiding we can be pretty sure that she doesn’t have the recall that you claim. 

Earlier I wrote:


MORE begging the question.  LMAO. 

It looks to me as if you took FOUR YEARS and ten days to train his recall.  This is a little different than the ten days you've been claming all along. 

And my challenge is now worth $3,000. 


How do you know that he'd been abused? 


Sounds a bit like Roma and Simon.  Both of whom were treated and cured in a couple of days with an Ecollar; NOT four years and ten days.  Not even ten days. 

Earlier IJF asked:

And Emmy replied:
Notice that Emmy says that anyone who asks her a question about her training is attacking her.  Also note the evasion of the question?  LOL. 

Lou: I haven't responded to your previous post in response to my previous one, either I can't type as fast as you or I don't have as much free time! Just trying to keep up with this thread takes enough time out of the day. Just quickly, a few things about your most recent exchange with Emmy struck me:


You wrote:
I believe Emmy didn't say that her method "required" a dog to calm down first, I haven't heard of any method for which this was a hard and fast rule. It's just that it's more practical to let the dog burn off some excess energy first. Why make your own job more difficult than it needs to be? there will be plenty of times when you don't have the opportunity to let the dog burn off energy before he needs to obey commands, so what's the harm in doing so when you do have a chance?

 
You wrote:
I'm curious about your challenge, not as someone who would accept it since I don't have a 99% recall, but what are the details of your challenge. Where is it held, how many times do you do test the recall (do you do it 100 times so you can assess if the recall was 99%?), is speed or time a factor as well?

What types of distractions are used, what distances, what terrain, are there safety precautions in place in case the dogs fail to recall, is it just you versus whoever accepts the challenge or are there others involved as well? How many people have accepted your challenge, how many have won, and can there be a tie (in which case who gets the money)? Do you advertise this challenge publicly or only issue it in person?

Have other e-collar users accepted your challenge? (Anyone from "the other school", or Denis perhaps?  :) )

If you competed against whoever accepted the challenge, would your dog be one that was e-collar trained or one that you trained using other methods? During the test do you take e-collars or other training aids away? Who is the judge (is it you?)

It sounds like it would be exciting to watch, like something that would be on ESPN, and would be speak in favor of the effectiveness of training recall with e-collars if e-collar-trained dogs consistently won. Do you have any videos or DVDs of past challenges?


Emmy wrote:

You wrote:
What does "being rich in the love of my(her) family and friends" have to do with your challenge? She had already said she wasn't interested in the money, and being sarcastic about her volunteer work is in bad taste. If you have this $3000 to spare, why not donate it to those shelters and rescues right now.

Out of interest, who here has seen (first hand, not a video!) an e-collar being used in the last few years? Please state any information about who was using it, for what training purpose and in what context (in a training seminar, in a park, on a service dog etc.)?

Additionally has anyone tried one on themselves to see what it feels like at different levels? To go further, have you tested to see at what level your dog would feel it at?

Joker, I think your competition class was telling you porkies. :wink:  :grin:

I have seen an e-collar used once, about three years ago and in a park. I do not know for what training purpose it was being used, or if it was a service dog. Two passing dog walkers drew my attention to a man whose GSD was a good distance away from him. Suddenly the dog yelped, and my informants said "That man is using an electric collar on his dog - he should be reported for cruelty".

As this was my only observation, I have followed this, and other e-collar debates with interest and am persuaded that the e-collar is a useful training aid in responsible hands. However, I have not got a very great deal of faith in human nature, and, given the wide range of 'normal' human intelligence, I would be very worried if the use of the e-collar became widespread.

PS I'm also very interested in $3,000  :D, and I, too, would love to know how the 'test' would be judged and whether it is only open to Emmy  :?. 

PPS I wouldn't expect to win, but I like to 'have a go'  :lol:.    

If the dog was some distance away how could anyone know for certain that an electric collar was being used?

Was an electric collar observed on the dog; was a remote control device observed being used?

FWIW I was once accused of using an e-collar when someone saw me use a clicker!  :shock: :roll:

Dog could have yelped because it had got stung, trod on a thorn etc?

Christina,

Only problem about taking the challenge is that if you lose, I think Lou wanted all his expenses paid (flight and accomodation from the US)!!

I will NOT be taking the test - I would fail, although I'm sure my dog would have fun chasing the furry, squeaky thing Lou would be probably be dragging in front of her......... :roll:

Just shows how much misinformation and stigma there is surrounding the e-collar.

I agree with Christina entirely. In fact, I think she's summed up the whole debate in one line. In the right hands, used by people who have an exceptional level understanding they can get results. In the wrong hands (same as any other training aid) they can be problematic.

The debate, I am sure, will rage on. (and on).

I think it shows that the e-collar was less rare than a clicker at the time........... ;)

The main difference between an e collar and an electic fence, the animals know the fences are there and what happens when they touch them so they choose not to touch them, with an e collar, that is worn round the dog's neck, so the dog doesn't have a choice. 



No Lou you didn't quote my words as written, you took them out of context and twisted the meanings, that is so easy to do but takes a twisted mind to do it as regulary as you do.  Carry on making a fool of yourself, I am really enjoying it (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v312/Nethertumbleweed/Kissey20Smiley20gif.gif)

 

Next time of what, it could be the next dog she had, it could be the other dog she had, it could have been because there wasn't enough evidence to prosecute her etc.  You are jumping to conclusions again Lou (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v312/Nethertumbleweed/6wink.gif)



Yes, you asked, and I think it is far more fun to keep you dangling on a string (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v312/Nethertumbleweed/rofl.gif)



Why is it so important to you Lou, it isn't me that is evading questions but you.  Why don't you put up which cities the directors of the pounds are that you SAID you had contacted.  I don't believe the exist. (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v312/Nethertumbleweed/happy10.gif)


Ahhh, so accusing me of doing nothing isn't assuming what I did.  (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v312/Nethertumbleweed/rofl.gif)



Sticks and stones again Lou, the people who know me and are my friends, know I don't lie, but you have told so many lies on this board that this is really funny, other have also accused you of lying, interesting, everyone lies expect Lou (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v312/Nethertumbleweed/rofl.gif)





Assuming again Lou, read my words, it doesn't say I took action, it says that if I took action there could be an ongoing case which posting on here would jepodise.   It is something you will never know no matter how much you go on about it.  (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v312/Nethertumbleweed/rofl.gif)



You are getting the Michael taken, and I am really enjoying it.  (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v312/Nethertumbleweed/6wink.gif)





I did put up some very simple meanings to the words Banned and Controlled, but you obviously didn't understand them even though they were the simplest I could find.  Maybe you would be better looking them up yourself then. (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v312/Nethertumbleweed/jump1.gif)



Now were did I say you were to put the TENs machine on my body, assuming again Lou or just wishful thinking, me thinks you protest too much (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v312/Nethertumbleweed/cheers.gif)



(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v312/Nethertumbleweed/rofl.gif) (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v312/Nethertumbleweed/rofl.gif) (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v312/Nethertumbleweed/rofl.gif)  When you can't reply you call me a liar.  Oh dear!! this is fun.



No dear, you clearly  said that I didn't know about the other use, keep digging the hole Lou (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v312/Nethertumbleweed/Kissey20Smiley20gif.gif)


Ahh!! you are changing your story now (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v312/Nethertumbleweed/rofl.gif)



so you are denying stating the name calling with me, you have a very short memory Lou, must be old age. (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v312/Nethertumbleweed/rofl.gif)

Quote from: Emmy on February 08, 2007, 03:38: PM
It was noted some time ago that you were doing this dear, in fact, you have done this so many times, I lost count some time ago.



If you are so keen to see the posts go and find them yourself, you seem to have more time than me to be on here, unlike you I have other things to do.   (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v312/Nethertumbleweed/cheers.gif)



It can go on over your clothes, depending on what those clothes are and how high you have it.  Some people are alergic to the gel that it is used with and they need to have a thin material between them and the machine.   As it happens, I didn't need to put it over clothes or to take my clothes off.  You are very easily lead Lou (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v312/Nethertumbleweed/chuffed.gif)



Then why ask the question.



That depends on the mental attitude of the dog, but then, I am not in a hurry to get results and prefer my dogs to be happy with what I want of them.  A dog that has been going crazy in a crate doesn't have the right mental attitude to start training with. 



Why ask the question then?



I am proud of my achievements, I have taught both riders and horses to a very high standard in showjumping, eventing and dressage.  I was doing well competing until I had an accident (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v312/Nethertumbleweed/thumbsup.gif)



No dear, I am fussy who I send invitations to, it was a challenge but you don't have the  to take it up but expect me to take yours up.  It gives us a good idea of how your mind works when you think of sooty things like this.  I am not that hard up to issue you with an invitation.   It is a challenge, I haven't asked you to put it on nor have I said were it will go on, again that is your sooty mind.  (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v312/Nethertumbleweed/Kissey20Smiley20gif.gif)



Yes, I won't accept it because you won't accept my challenge, fairs fair, tit for tat and all that. (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v312/Nethertumbleweed/rofl.gif)



Yes Lou, quite a few do understand why money means nothing to me, when you have watched someone you adore take 10 years of fighting to stay alive then loose that fight, money means nothing. 



If you thought that much about helping rescues and shelters you would donate that money to them anyway.  I do help rescues, I give time which is just as valuable as money to them. 







 

Interacting with them in the house is teaching a dog, you don't just start the recall off, but there is sit, down, stand, walking to heal etc. is all started with the interacting in the house.





Got nothing better to say Lou, obviously not so you resort to insulting again, well sticks and stones and all that (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v312/Nethertumbleweed/rofl.gif)





And since you have a challenge before you that you keep avoiding,  pmsl.   That is something you will never find out if you don't accept my challenge.  Pity Yorkie was driven away, she has seen the recall my dogs have, and as people like her matter more to me than you do, I don't care if you think she has a good recall or not, myself and others know the truth and that is what matters to me.  (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v312/Nethertumbleweed/Kissey20Smiley20gif.gif)





No dear, when you have a dog that he is so terrified that he went into seizures on several occasions you have to find the key to what they don't associate with their past life first.  He also has brain damage, the vet said that not me, but then, you probably don't believe the vet either unless it is something you want to hear.  Once I found it, he took 10 days to get a 99% recall.  Denis has also said on quite a few occasions that he would never work with a dog like Joe.  (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v312/Nethertumbleweed/6wink.gif)



Only worth that, I have said before money means nothing to me, it is just a figure.   If you want to part with you money that much, give it to a shelter or rescue.





I was told that by the wife/mother of those that were doing it.  Can't get much closer than that.(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v312/Nethertumbleweed/6wink.gif)



Now that is something I don't believe and I doubt many members on here would either.





schmoo

When Lou has been asked about details of this challenge in the past, he has bypast the question like he does with any question he doesn't want to answer.  Lou also has a habit of changing things then says you have it wrong which is why others haven't taken the challenge in the past. 

Why else would she have waited? 


It depends on your definition of energy that's "excess."  I think that any energy that the dog has needs to be used in the training, not bled off so that training can begin.  Dogs need to perform under any circumstances whether they're "full of energy" or "all tuckered out."  If training requires that the dog be in some specific low energy state then it's obvious that it's less  effective than one that allows the trainer to work no matter how the dog is feeling. 



Why waste time when the dog can be trained? 



Details can be found here. 

http://www.petfriendlyworld.com/chat/index.php?topic=5362.msg51701#msg51701

For Emmy I've raised the value to $3,000 and I only will require 99% OB instead of the stated 100%.  .  In this case it would be modified so that the recall is tested. 

Let's look at some facts, There are thousands of people who compete in OB, many of them professionals who have trained thousands of dogs.  It's quite rare for any of them to get a perfect score!  It's quite rare that they only garner a 99% score!  Yet Emmy, who tells us that she's not a professional and only works with the dogs of her friends and some rescues, tells us, several times now, that her recall is 99%. 



None. 


No, either the dog passes or he fails. 


I've placed it on dozens of forums and email subscription lists. 


None of them have been foolish enough to make a statement, as has Emmy, that they have either 100% or even 99% reliable OB. 



I've never made such a foolish statement.  As the challenge says,


The dog will be tested "naked."  Any type of collar can be a cue to the dog. 


The test will be videotaped and anyone who is interested can get a copy.  But it will be obvious.  In this case, the recall, if the dog stops his movement towards the handler or requires a second command.  He fails. 

Earlier Emmy wrote
And I replied

Nothing at all  But I'd suggest that you ask Emmy.  I think it's her way or weaseling out of proving her 99% reliability statement.  She knows it's a lie and she knows that she's cornered. 


There was no sarcasm about her volunteer work.  I was merely pointing out that since Emmy says that she's not interested in money (oh please . . . ) that she could donate it all to a shelter and help the dogs. 


I don't have $3,000 to spare.  I'm interested in learning about dog training.  If Emmy's method of training is so good that her dog can pass my test then she'll be earning the money for teaching me how she does it.  Since I know that her dog won't pass, no dog will, it's just a put up or a shut up.  Of course I know she won't do either.  But it's a way of pointing out that she's exaggerating how good her training is. 

Did your informants report the man for cruelty?  People will often make such a comment and then do nothing.  I don't understand it but I've seen it. 

I've done dozens of seminars where I'll have been working a dog for ten minutes or so and someone will ask, "When are you going to start pressing the button."  Usually this is accompanied by a murmur of agreement from some members of the audience.  Fact is I'd been pressing the button since I started working the dog.  There's no yelping.  There's no fear.  Many people can't even tell when I pressed the button.  There's none of the horrible things that the anti - Ecollar folks tell you happens.  They've been LYING to you. 


The bad news is that there's a catch.  The catch has the loser of the challenge paying me (in this case) $3,000 AND reimbursing me for all expenses I paid to get to the location.  There are consequences to lying in this challenge.  If there weren't I'd be traveling all over so people could give it a try. 

Of COURSE the dog wearing the Ecollar has a choice.  This just shows how little you understand dogs, dog training in general and Ecollars specifically!  LOL

The dog touching the charged fence has a choice as well.  He realizes that if he touches it again he'll feel pain.  If what he wants badly enough is on the other side of the fence he may fight through the pain to get to it.  But he has a choice. 

The dog wearing the Ecollar knows that he can make the discomfort stop by sitting (for example).  If he wants to chase a rabbit instead he can try and fight through it.  The only difference is that the Ecollar can be turned up so that he'll DECIDE not to chase the rabbit and to sit.  This can't be done with the charged fence. 

Earlier I wrote:


Anytime you think I've done this you're free to quote the words back WITH the context.  The fact that you don't, over and over, shows that you know that this statement is just another lie. 

I quoted your words back to you and showed the forum what you were trying to do.  All you've done is to make accusations without anything to back them up.  It means nothing. 

Earlier I wrote:  


Next time the owner chose to abuse the dog with an Ecollar. 

Here are your words since you don't seem to be able to remember them. 

Not enough evidence?  How could that be?  You're an expert aren't you?  Wouldn't your opinion that she was abusing the dog be sufficient?  Mine has been several times.  I've convicted several people for cruelty to animals on just my word. 



I've just asking some questions Emmy. 

Earlier I wrote:


And making a fool of yourself at the same time.  Fine by me.  I didn't think that you could be any more childish, but you proved me wrong.  ROFLMAO


Because it's pretty clear by your behavior that it really didn't happen. 



The questions have been answered, you just don't like the answers. 


The reasons have been stated even though they're quite obvious. 


OK.  You're not required to.  It's really secondary to the discussion about Ecollars. 



You were asked if you did anything.  Then you started to avoid responding with any substance.  It's reasonable to believe, due to this behavior, that you did nothing. 


Ahhh the six year old again. 


Or that you're pretty good at it and they haven't caught you yet.  LOL. 


Not everyone, but certainly you. 


More accusations without proof. 


Not at all.  I quite clearly wrote that you were now "hinting" that you did take some action. 


Which is of course nonsense.  LOL. 


Well now I will assume that you did nothing.  And that's based on quite a bit of evidence of you evading and trying to avoid some very direct questions about what you did.  So you saw a dog being abused (so you'd like us to believe) and you did nothing.  Either you're a liar or a person who has no backbone.  The specifics don't really matter. 

Earlier you wrote

Since you seem to think this makes some major difference I'll rephrase.  You oppose BSL (Breed specific legislation) and wanting Ecollars RESTRICTED is very much the same sort of thing.  In your signature line is the phrase "Blame the deed not the breed."  Blaming a breed for the actions of a very small group is analogous to blaming a breed for the problems that a few cause.  As with BSL, the individual misusing or abusing a dog with the Ecollar (or any tool) should be punished for his act. 

Happy now?  LMAO. 

Earlier I wrote:


You did Emmy.  Here AGAIN are your words,

Methinks you lie to much. 

Earlier I wrote:



My words are clear Emmy.  You're the one who keep denying the truth.  I repeated them just above and added emphasis so that even you can see what was said. 

Earlier I wrote:

Not at all.  Here is my first mention of TENS in this thread.  I wrote: 

Caught in a lie again Emmy. 


Yes I am and I've invited you to prove that statement.  You haven't.  All you have is an accusation and no proof.  If it happened it's just a matter of you bringing it to your next post.  I know that you won't because you know that I'll find where you started the name calling and personal attacks. 


You can't find something that doesn't exist.  You can't prove a negative.  That's why you haven't quoted any of my posts to support your accusations.  I, on the other hand, have shown your posts just about every time I've made the accusation. 


Of course you do. 

Earlier I wrote:


Ever read any poetry by Walter Scott?  "Oh! what a tangled web we weave
When first we practice to deceive!"

Your web is getting VERY tangled right now. 

EVERY source of information on the TENS that I've found has said that the electrodes need to be applied directly to the skin.  There are two kinds of electrodes.  Those that have self adhesive conducting pads and those that use a gel to increase the conductivity, that need to be taped on or laid down on. 

I've now spoken to several very experienced PTists and they all DENY that a TENS can be used over clothes, no matter how high it's turned up and no matter what the situation.  But let's remember that you said it caused you pain at the lowest level of stim that it produced.  At that level it wouldn't even penetrate the clothing. 

I called two companies that manufacturer TENS machines and their representatives said the same thing. 

But maybe things are different in the UK.  ROFLMAOMSON. 


I'm told that there are two ways to overcome this, neither of them have any kind of "thin material" between the electrode and the skin.  One method is to use hypoallergenic electrodes and another is to use a hypoallergenic gel.   

And so once again, Emmy is caught in a lie. 


Emmy the thought of just being in your presence makes me queasy.  Touching you, even over clothes would have me hurl. 


You are very easily caught Emmy. 


Yes, we know that.  We now know that it didn't take you ten days to get a recall it took you four years and ten days.  The reality is that dogs have relatively short life spans, the quicker they're trained (as long as it's humane) the better. 



My Ecollar trained dogs are quite happy with what I want of them. 


What you REALLY mean that "with your methods" a dog "going crazy in a crate doesn't have the right mental attitude to start training with."  I have no problem training such a dog. 




Uh Emmy, this is a conversation about DOGS, not horses.  It's about training DOGS, not horses.  Begging the question again we see.  ROFL. 


There's no need for me to accept your invitation now Emmy.  I've already said that I accept that at the lowest levels the TENS caused you pain. 

Now as to that 99% recall you claim . . .

Earlier I wrote:


You've already won your challenge Emmy!  I admit that I was wrong and you were right.  The TENS hurt you at it's lowest level.  I accept that and believe you. 

Now as to that 99% recall . . .


I said I believe you Emmy.  But you also talk a lot about rescues and shelters.  You could donate the $3,000 to your favorite charity.  You could direct me to write the check directly to them.  You could direct the money to an organization that fights BSL.  I'm sure that either or both could use it. 




I don't have that kind of money to donate but I do have that kind of money to learn more about dog training.  If you won, and according to you it's a sure thing, you could donate your time AND the money. 


You've already won your challenge Emmy.  Now about that 99% recall . . .


Yorkie wasn't driven away.  She was shown to be less than knowledgeable and beaten in these discussions repeatedly.  She slunk off like a thief in the night.  You've taken up her flag but you're not anywhere near as good as she was. 


I doubt that your have a 99% recall and have given you the opportunity to shut me up for good AND to make some money for yourself or any charity of your choice at absolutely no risk to yourself (if it's true that is.  LOL) 

Earlier I wrote:


What you really mean is that YOU have to find that key.  I'd have just trained the dog.  You had to wait FOUR YEARS to train him. 


So what.  Obviously his damage wasn't so severe that he couldn't learn to recall.  Isn't it interesting that every time we hear about this dog he has some new problem that we've never heard of before?  He was abused, he was confined, he ran, he had brain damage . . . Is there some end to this list of excuses? 

Earlier I wrote:


Nope you have to win it.  Once you do, you can dispose of it as you please.  Now about that 99% recall . . .




I'll be happy to supply you with contact information for both Jen (Roma's owner) and Larry (the shelter volunteer who fixed Simon).  You can call them, email them talk to them, whichever you lease.  In fact you can join the Ecollar Plus list and get the story straight from Larry.  He's posted a file there that you can also read about his work. 

Emmy responded to Schmoo
You're a liar.  I answer all questions asked of me. 


You're a liar.  Show us the posts. 


Others haven't taken the challenge because they know that their OB isn't as good as they'd like others to believe, as in this case.