Dog Chat

To all you raw feeders out there - perhaps you can advise...

I'm considering feeding raw (once i've done my homework to make sure diet is balanced) since I think it gives dogs so much more pleasure than eating a bowl of biscuits, but have some reservations.

I'm not obsessive about cleaning (nothing like it!) but one of the things that puts me off feeding raw is the fact that i'd have to really scrub the floor clean every day to remove raw chicken/meat particles. Am thinking that in hot weather in summer, this would likely be twice a day, after each meal. Not keen on leaving it to fester, since I often sit around on the floor with my dog, and have children come to visit too (I once had extremely severe food poisoning from chicken and am quite careful now when it comes to hygeine).

What do others do? Just leave it? Have lots of time to clean? Feed outside? Am I worrying about nothing?

Would it be an option to stick mainly to the complete dry food, and once or twice a week feed a raw meal,for some variety/fun or would this just cause digestive problems?

Thanks for any thoughts!

Well, I only feed raw in winter AM only because of the very high increase in activty, I don't want dry food in her stomach late afternoon when she gets her big exercise (this is a working line dog so activity is hectic).

I am not at all happy about the outright abysmal info on raw mulched veg, most of which makes it sound quite dangerous long term and because of the conflicts I have found with info around the net I simply am very uncertain about it. I did go to the vet but he really would not commit to anything, said it was a nutritionists field of expertise and as far as he knew they had very few facts on long term issues.

I feed Iams at night and in summer I feed Iams AM & PM because the activity is lower and so the amounts of food is lower and not likely to cause problems on long excercise. I am satisfied that a good dried food has good long term benefits for most dogs, I am not convinced enough is known to give accurate info on raw diets when taking the long term into account.

Some samples below

Cross posted.
A few notes on certain vegetables: The cabbage family (cabbage, broccoli, kale, etc.) fed in large amounts have been noted to decrease thyroid function. This does not mean they cannot be used as part of your vegetable mix. The same is true of vegetables that contain high amounts of oxalic acid, such as spinach and chard. They interfere with calcium absorption and irritate urinary conditions. Variety is the key. Peppers are excellent as they are high in vitamin C.

Smokeybear
Apart from avoiding onions altogether (Heinz haemolytic anaemia) there are other vegetables that, in excess, can pose potential problems for dogss.

therefore some people advise avoiding veggies from the nightshade family (potatoes, tomatoes, peppers and eggplant) for both dogs and humans as they may aggravate arthritis.

Cruciferous vegetables are thyroid inhibitors (eg kale, broccoli, brussel sprouts, cabbage, cauliflower, kohlrabi and swede, should be given sparingly)

Soya is a thyroid inhibitor too and should not be fed to dogs although there are many dog foods which are based on soya.

Spinach, parsley and purslane etc are high in oxalic acid and may interfere with calcium intake and may cause stones.

Fruit and vegetables are a good and natural source of carbs for dogs and less than 10% of the total intake should consist of them.  It is a good idea to give above ground and below ground veggies although personally I never feed potatoes.  In order for the dog to access the micronutrients/vitamins etc it is necessary for the cell walls to be broken down either by freezing or by pulverising in a blender.  Cooking generally defeats the object of the exercise.

In reality although she gets raw AM (tripe or fish with mixed veg mulsh) it is the Iams PM which is her main food and it is that which makes me feel secure she gets a very good balance. if I had to chose I fed one or the other I would only feed dry, the reason being there is simply not enough info around and what there is seems to consistently suggest all kinds of dangers with veg.

My dogs do not LEAVE any particles of ANYTHING so that is not a problem. :D

You can feed outside or on a mat, in a cage etc.

Feeding raw as a treat will not upset your dog.

There is plenty of documented evidence of what and how to feed a dog raw which clearly demonstrates that it is not rocket science:

Switching to Raw
Ultimate Nutrition
The BARF diet
Give a Dog a Bone
Work Wonders
Raw Meaty Bones

People have been successfully feeding raw to their dogs for centuries prior to commercial food and even been able to cook and feed their families without degrees in nutrition.

The recommended percentages for veggies are not more than 10% and apart from onions nothing is poisonous or dangerous per se Denis as you have been told and could find out.

Grapes and raisins are toxic too.

You can feed anything else but of course ANYTHING in excess can be toxic to ANY animal including water.


Not seen any documented "DANGERS" with veg only caveats, as there are with anything, with overfeeding certain types.

Thanks for the info.

Indeed, lots of confusing info out there about what's acceptable and what's not - haven't made any decisions yet about what I would feed - i've got that joy to come.

Really just trying to figure out at this stage whether it's an option to do limited raw feeding, as opposed to every day/every meal (which I guess you're saying it is an option, although in winter you feed raw every day for one meal, so this is still somewhat different to the option i'm considering). What do you do hygeine wise to minimise infection in the home when feeding raw?

Does anyone else out there just feed raw for an occasional meal?

ah I posted just as you had replied smokeybear - i'll read yours now - thanks.

Couple of questions:

1. Assume you calculate the 10% of veg by weight?

2. Also, perhaps a bit of a naiive question as i'm new to the idea of raw still, but is a young pup ok to eat chicken bones (or any bones for that matter)? Will they be able to crunch them up and swallow/digest them ok? Just a bit worried about things getting stuck somewhere.

3. I don't really know what sort of overall weight a raw meal should be for a 12 week old (still on 4 meals a day). Does the literature you mention cover this? (incidentally, are these books or internet things?).

Thanks,

carol.

I never weigh anything.

I find it easier to say to newbies to raw feeding feed one item per day ie one banana OR one carrot or one apple, pulped in the food processer for carrots or apples.  However, one swede/cabbage is, IMHO, a tad excessive! :)

Puppies of any breed are equipped to deal with raw meaty bones/carcases etc from 4/5 weeks. the bones in chicken are very plastic unlike when they are cooked.  If in doubt, bash them with a hammer first.

A dog should be eating around 2 - 3% of its bodyweight per day for an adult or around 10% of its current weight if a puppy (rough guide only).

The books I mention cover this in depth, and are available via Crosskeys, Amazone etc; Switching to Raw which is the simplest book for a beginner is a little harder to source.  The next simplest book is Ultimate Nutrition by Kmythy Schulze

ok thanks for the info, it helps.

I've been feeding raw for over 4 years and at first I had all the same worries as you ;-)

Honestly once you get used to it it isn't difficult the hardest bit is remembering to take the meat out of the freezer :oops: I used to fed veg and fruit but don't bother now unless I have some left over from my meals. I give one dog a raw carrot because he likes them and he also has a small orange from time to time because he enjoys it. I do buy minced raw lamb with veg sometimes as well.

There are raw feeding groups you could join if you like have a search on YAHOO for breed specific or there is

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/BritBarf/

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/BritishCanineBarfHealth/

A good one for working out how much to feed is  http://www.raw4dogs.com/calculate.htm

Some people add supplements some don't. I give Fishbody Oil Vit E Evening primrose oil and Garlic.

HTH

Anne

Thanks Anne, really helpful links there.

Incidentally, here's the website for the first book that Smokeybear mentioned, Switching to Raw:

http://www.switchingtoraw.com/order.html. You can order it online and get it shipped from the U.S. - $13.95 plus $10 shipping (about £12.30).

Hi,

When feeding indoors, my dog has been trained to eat his bones on a washable mat (which I then wash every couple of days), and he religously ensures his bone does not stray off the mat (bless him!).  In fact "trained" is a bit of an exaggeration, as I only asked him to do this twice and he's remembered it ever since - which I'm really amazed by.  I think it's because he loves bones so much he's happy to oblige any request! I can now give him his bone, and without my saying anything he'll take it to the mat to eat.

If feeding different types of food, do not mix kibble and raw meat together in one meal as they digest at different rates so can cause minor digestive problems.

Also, do not feed fruits with meats or vegetables because fruit uses different digestive enzymes which essentially means that the food is not digested and since fruits are high in sugar, the undigested fruit then begins to putrefy leading to the growth of bad bacteria and other related health problems.

Fruit is, for the most part digested rather quick and so feeding fruit at least 30 minutes before a main meal allows the fruit to be digested enough to not cause any problems. Although I prefer to feed fruits at least 60 minutes before a main meal is fed.

Feeding fruits at least 2 hours after a main meal is fed helps ensure the main meal is digested enough to ensure the fruit doesn't cause any problems.

HTH
Michelle

I wonder how wild canids have managed all these centuries not following these rules?

Canids will (depending on type) devour the intestines and contents which typically contain herbage.  They will also feed upon fallen fruit and even "pick their own" where available.

I am not sure, being opportunists, that they leave a certain amount of time between say eating muscle meat and fruit?

I am not sure I understand how fruit putrefies in the gut, could you expand upon this please?

Are those the same "rules" you keep quoting SmokeyBear?

I too raw feed, and I feed them on a bath towel.  They get all excited when I lay the towel on the floor.  I put the meat on this and the eat it on that.  I just throw them in for a wash every couple of days.  It only took a couple of feeds (of them moving it off the towel and me moving it back on) for them to realise that that is where they eat their food.

I was very nervous about giving them chicken legs or lamb necks etc... and still am a little, which is why I don't leave them unattended when feeding.

I am trying to introduce Henry to raw, but he tends to 'suck' everything and not chew it.  When I give him pigs ears he just sucks them, and
likewise to the chicken wings.  It is a good idea of yours smokeybear to bash them first - I will give that a try  :grin:

I also give them naturediet, as I can't get Keira to eat the veggie patties that I make, and I was concerned that just eating the meat wasn't giving her the vitamins and minerals she needed.

Good luck  :grin:

Hi, I'm new to this forum and am amazed by all the unsubstantiated claims regarding BARF or raw feeding, which all seems to be based around the notion that it is bringing your dog back to a more natural way of living and the diet of the wolf is often referred to.

I considered a raw diet for my dog and decided to thoroughly investigate everyone's claims on both sides.  To be honest, I found alot of evidence against a raw diet yet only individuals' claims in support, and the many mail groups on the subject that I have previously enlisted with tend to resemble more of a cult than an exchange of reliable information.

I have yet to find any firm evidence that it is nutritionally better for my dog.  Many of the mail groups are actually filled with tales of ailments and requests for advice from the remaining (unqualified) members.

I have read reports that a growing number of dogs are actually dying from a raw turkey or chicken back/neck tearing apart their stomach as well as intestinal parasites from the raw meat causing a slow death or severe illness.

I have also read reports that in fact many wolves and wild dogs do die of intestinal parasites which are contracted from eating raw meat, as well as evidence from their carcasses that they also die from perforated stomachs, bowels from splintered fowl bones and have very bad dental problems.

I have also read about the so called "prey diet" for dogs based on a typical diet for a wolf.  Again, correct me if I'm wrong, although I understand when a wolf eats an animal, they eat virtually every edible part of it- meat, cartilage, fur/feathers, skin/hide, fats, marrow, blood, pieces of bone, organs.  These bone fragments depend on the presence of the prey's skin and fur and the wolf's digestive system to help protect it, where the skin and fur get "rearranged" to the outside of everything else to buffer and protect the bowel from the sharp pieces of bone, yet wolves in the wild have still died from perforated bowels.
It would therefore appear that unless you also feed your dog the fur and skin when they eat bones you run the risk of a perforated bowel.

I would be very interested if anyone on this forum has any actual statistical evidence in support of BARF or raw feeding.

I look forward with interest!

Could you post the sources that made you decide against raw :smile:

My evidence is my dogs, no intestinal parasites, no diseases, no unhealthy gums or teeth, fantastic health, looks and performance.

You cannot get better stats than that! :D

The key ones for me were http://www.thepetcenter.com/imtop/bones.html and also http://www.thepetcenter.com/imtop/wolfexrep.html which has information from experts involved in the care of wolves. 

It wasn't really what they had to say, it was that no one knows for sure, plus there does seem to be a consensus that it depends on the breed and the diet needs to be breed specific rather than one diet for all etc.  Therefore, a successful case of raw feeding with one dog doesn't mean you will not have a problem with a different dog.

The other point that seemed to keep cropping up was the alleged link with raw feeding to pancreatitis and colitis.  Again I have no way of knowing whether this is hype or a real risk, and as a layman who wants to unwittingly expose their dog to all of these problems in a bid to give them a healthier diet?

I have read many testimonials similar to Smokeybears and I congratulate them.  Does it mean my dog will have the same experience - not necessarily, hence the concern.

I would really love to be able to feed my dog a well-balanced fresh diet.  However, until I can find some hard evidence that it's safe, I feel I have to stick to kibble, supplemented with cooked meat.

There were many other references I looked at which I didn't save.  Not all are outright against raw, yet they raise questions that no one seems to answer.  Others are just plain 'BARF bashing'.  My conclusions were that unless you have some sort of nutritionist knowledge (which I don't), the chances of being able to provide a balanced diet are slim.  There is such an array of information on the subject, and not all of it substantiated by qualifications, how does one decide which approach to follow, particularly on the subject of supplementation?

Most of the information on the internet does seem to be US based, presumably as Raw Feeding is more popular there.  For every site for BARF there is a site anti it.  Doing a quick search again, I found the following again:

http://www.greatdanelady.com/articles/feeding_a_raw_diet_htm.htm
http://www.burns-pet-nutrition.co.uk/BARF_Diet_JohnBurns03.pdf
http://home.att.net/~wdcusick/raw.html
http://www.dogpeople.org/BARF%20Myth.htm

To quote the words of 'The Great Dane Lady' "You need to have a very good background in nutrition to calculate appropriate amounts of calories and particularly of calcium/phosphorus intake or there will be DOD (developmental orthopedic diseases) or growing problems in young animals, as well as arthritis in the elderly animal. The attempt to feed totally raw without a solid "understanding" of the principles of nutrition can be disastrous in the long haul."

Smokeybear - how long have you been feeding raw? from what age and what breed?  do you supplement and how do you ensure a balanced diet?

I have been feeding raw for over 6 years.

My latest puppy was reared on totally raw from 7 weeks (although his breeder fed a mixture of raw and commercial).

Weims and GSD (both of whom are "allegedly" supposed to have "delicate tummies"  :roll:

How do I ensure they get a balanced diet?

The same way I manage to feed my family a balanced diet; I don't feel the need to feed them a scientifically produced complete! ;)

There is plenty of literature for the enthusiast, it is not difficult and dogs have survived and thrived on raw food for centuries, it is pet food that is new and there are no studies to support the efficacy of commercial products either!

I supplement with FBO, Vitamin E, Vitamin C, EPO, garlic (just like myself)!

Smokeybear,

What fish oil do you use and where do you get it from?

http://www.healthspan.co.uk/shop/product.aspx?Id=O3-C

Smokeybear, you don't supplement with calcium? 

I had understood getting the calcium/phosphorus ratio right was one of the important points in raw feeding.  I have read that meat is naturally low in calcium and high in phosphorus and further that bones provided more phosphorus than calcium, hence calcium was needed to replace the calcium that would ordinarily be provided by the prey's blood in a natural kill.

Is this incorrect information or just not that important a factor?

No I would NEVER supplement with calcium. 

No raw feeding book recommends this and it is not necessary; there is not "one" calcium:phosphorus ratio common to all meat/bones etc a lot depends on species and where the meat comes from re meat/bone ratio.

Smokeybear,

Do you know of a resource that would give me a breakdown of calcium/phosphorus levels for different food (say chicken backs, turkey necks, beef/lamb ribs, various muscle meats, organs etc.).

I have heard the argument that most rawfeeders do not include blood, so may be missing out on some nutrients. Short of giving my dog a freshly killed chicken or rabbit, how do I ensure the correct calcium/phosphorus ratio, which is especially important with large breed puppies?

Thanks.

http://www.ars.usda.gov/Services/docs.htm?docid=9673

This is an excellent resource for research when feeding.

Thanks Smokeybear.

I have used similar http://www.nutritiondata.com/. The problem I have is that these sites are for human food and therefore do not assume you are going to eat the bones!

You should be able to find raw meat with bones on here!

Nope! Must be getting more incompetent as I get older...

Hi Smokeybear

I was wondering is it cheaper/better value feeding your dog on a fresh food diet as i understand that about 10 % of canned food is actual meat and the rest is water etc,i used to feed my dogs AMP the normal packs all flavours 1 x 400g pack a day and mixer,with a multi vit and veg oil(same as the horse got)i also gave fresh liver/hearts and bones as well as tinned fish so my was kinda 1/2 and 1/2 diet,am reading all this info with great interest.

Lee

Wet foods ie those that come in tins or are vacuum packed do contain a great deal of water, however that is not necessarily an issue.  Most of the content is not meat either but cereal.

I am not sure it is cheaper to feed raw per se but it I have found it cheaper in that I have never (touch wood) had to visit a vet due to ill health in over 6 years.

***have also read reports that in fact many wolves and wild dogs do die of intestinal parasites which are contracted from eating raw meat, as well as evidence from their carcasses that they also die from perforated stomachs, bowels from splintered fowl bones and have very bad dental problems.***

This amused me! Wolves are not really likely to die on any other diet, being wild animals are they? My own dog was a walking bag of bones from when I got her aged two. Since feeding her a raw diet she has gained weight and people have commented on how well she looks now ;)