Having lived in Spain for 2 years, where I did a lot of work in rescue centres, I can say that Spain is definitely NOT a nice place for dogs.  I wouldn't like to tell you some of the things I have seen.

However, rescues in other European countries were fantastic at helping us get dogs out of Spain and into lovely homes - in particular Germany, Sweden, The Netherlands and Belgium.

Sharon x

"So what your saying is that any person that works the regular 8 hours a day cannot have a dog? That doesn't make any sense... "

Tamara - yes of course, lots of people do have dogs that are at work all day, however, not puppies.  A puppy cannot be socialised and housetrained when he or she is left for such long periods.  

If you really do want to get a dog then you have to consider what type of dog would suit your situation.  It's possible an older rescue dog that's used to being left during the day might be suitable, but in any case, 10 hours is too long so you would have to either get home at lunchtime yourself, or pay a dogwalker.   Even with an older dog that could be left most dog rescues would not allow you to adopt a dog if it was to be left more than 4 hours at a time, so you would need to prove you had made adequate provisions for the dog to be exercised and to have some company.

Getting a dog is not something to be taken lightly, and is a huge commitment anyway, but to make it work when you are out all day would require you to get up extremely early to make sure your dog was properly exercised, the financial commitment of paying for a dogwalker (which is quite costly, then when you come home tired from work, your first priority would be another walk and spending as much time as possible interacting with your dog.  

A responsible breeder would certainly not let a puppy go at 5 weeks, and would also not sell a puppy to someone that would leave it for 10 hours a day.

Sharon

I used to work at The Kennel Club, and I have to say stories like that are not uncommon.  Unfortunately it's virtually impossible to regulate, and it would be too costly to introduce DNA testing to prove parentage.

I know of an instance where a breeder had a KC registered GSD, but he was aggressive, so the breeder used another GSD to breed from who didn't have papers, but was a lovely temperament, and filled in the forms stating that the aggressive dog was the father.  In some ways, better than using the aggressive dog to breed from, but still very dishonest.

This was from a breeder that only bred GSDs.  I dread to think what goes on at the puppy farms.

Sharon

It may have worked in that instance, but possibly because the aggression stemmed from something other than fear.

Aggression is a very complex behaviour, and something that should be handled very carefully.  

Startling a dog as you suggest can have extremely dangerous consequences, and I wouldn't recommend anyone try it without consulting an expert.

I know you meant well in offering advice, but if that advice is based on your experience with your own dog and a friends, not on any scientifically proven methods, or knowledge of dog theories and techniques, then it may be totally the wrong advice given the situation.

Sharon

Thanks Marion.

Alan - FYI here are the four quadrants of operant conditioning:

Positive reinforcement - usually a treat or dogs favourite thing, given as a reward upon presentation of the requested action (ie you ask your dog to sit, it sits, you give it a treat.

Negative reinforcement - this is the removal of something unpleasant when the dog presents the required action, in other words, the dog learns to do what you want in order to avoid something unpleasant (such as the use of an electronic collar).  Most dog trainers would only use this method in extreme circumstances, such as training a dog not to go near something dangerous.

Positive punishment - this is the presentation of something the dog perceives as unpleasant (such as your noisy bottle).  This method can be used to distract a dog from an undesirable behaviour (in the right circumstances).

Negative punishment - this is the removal of something the dog wants, for example, if your dog barks at you for attention, you leave the room and the dog is deprived of something it loves - human attention.

If you're interested in learning more about this, I recommend you read 'Don't shoot the dog' by Karen Pryor, Culture Clash by Jean Donaldson and 'Excel-erated Learning' by Pamela Reid.

Sharon

Sorry to disagree with Alan, but using a plastic bottle as he suggests could make thngs worse.  He's already frightened of strangers, and if they do something to startle him, he'll have even more reason to be wary of them.  He may not associate the frightening noise with his behaviour, but with the person.

This is a problem that will require a lot of patience on your part, gradually getting him used to strangers coming closer and closer, rewarding him for quiet behaviour and building up his confidence.  

Really, with any aggression issue I would recommend you get some professional help, as you really can't afford to get it wrong and risk someone getting bitten.

Sharon

Thanks Stan, I look forward to your DVD being available, I will certainly give it a try.

It's also interesting to read your comments, and I'm glad that you have the same opinion as I do about headcollars.  Personally I think it's ridiculous that you can't be a member of the APDT if you use chains, but that headcollars are perfectly acceptable.  As you say, they do nothing to train a dog to walk properly, and in many cases cause discomfort.

I also agree with your comments about check chains, and it doesn't surprise me that many owners don't know how to use them.  Although I do use them myself, I don't think they should be sold without instructions explaining how they are meant to be used.  And again, though I use them myself, I am quite particular about which owners I recommend them to, and I spend a long time explaining how they work, and the dangers or using them incorrectly.

I suppose the underlying issue with both methods is that, used incorrectly, they can cause unecessary stress or pain.  

As dog trainers we are always going to have many factors to consider when recommending and training different methods - I know from experience that clicker training and the timing required is just beyond some people. Also that some people can't afford on-going training, so I may only have one session to do as much as I can to correct a problem.

Although I understand that you do not agree with chains, it's nice to have a discussion with someone that knows what they are talking about and that's taken the time to try and come up with an alternative method.

Sharon

Hi Alan

As I said in my email, I have used many different methods but I find with difficult large breeds a chain quite often is the best method.  If you're dealing with a dog that's stronger than you, and that isn't interested in anything else but pulling, then you need to get the dog under control before you can start to work with it.  I was asking the question in general, not because I have a specific problem with one dog.

I've been using check chains for 21 years now, and I've never had a dog be scared or not want to go out for a walk.  

I have, however, been called to a house and had to retrain a Golden Retriever where another dog trainer had sold the owner a halti.  That dog hated it so much that it refused to go for walks and the owner was unable to get it back on the lead if she let it off.  The owner was quite a frail lady and the dog did really pull with a normal collar, so I can understand the other trainer recommending a halti - if I am in a situation where I feel the owner isn't going to be able to use a chain correctly, then I will recommend something like a halti since it's something that's far easier for an inexperienced person to use.  However, once I explained how to use the chain and we had some practice, we got the dog walking perfectly, and we also taught some basic door manners and recall so that she was able to take him out confidently.  After this I came to realise from other customers, that the dog trainer who had sold the halti didn't ever spend much time with his clients, but basically made his money on one-off appointments by selling them whatever product he recommended to cure their problem.  

A chain used properly is probably one of the most comfortable things to use - the idea being that you only use lead jerks a minimum amount of time at the beginning to encourage the dog to walk to heel.  After that the chain hangs losely around the neck so I'd say that's slightly more comfortable than a head collar or harness.  It's a question of opinion I suppose as to whether a positive punishment in the short term is better than an uncomfortable positive method.  

As a dog trainer I am always interested and open to new methods.  There are always many different ways to train or correct problem behaviour, and the more you know, the better equipped you are to help.  All dogs are different and what is necessary for a bullmastiff with no manners wouldn't be right for a nervous spaniel.  I don't have a set way of training that I use on every dog I come across, I assess the dog and decide which method would work best given the dogs behaviour and temperament, and the owners capability and willingness to put the time in.

Another consideration when someone is paying you to train their dog is the time element.  Some methods do take longer than others, and if someone is paying you by the hour, is it really fair to use a method that takes twice as long?

So, to get back to my original point, that's why I'm interested in understanding more about how Stan's collar works.  I'm hoping it will give me yet another method to add to my collection!

Sharon

Hi
Just a word of warning about using prozac.  In some cases of aggression this can actually make the situation worse, so that really should be a last resort.  It might be worth talking to your vet about an alternative.
Sharon

I used to work full time at a dog rescue and they only used JWB.  In my opinion it's one of the best dried foods available.

Stan
I'm really interested to hear more about your jingler collar and how it works.

Obviously I understand the concept of using the noise to distract the dog, but I don't see how this works.  Surely the bells jingle constantly as the dog moves making it difficult to then distract the dog with the sound?

I'd also be interested in some other trainers opinions on the best way to stop lead pulling.  I use many different techniques dependent on the dog (and owner), including (and I know I will get critisism for this), a choke chain.  I have to say, that used properly, I still find this a very effective way of training, particularly with very strong dogs (and I am making this comment, not as an ignorant person who knows nothing about other methods, I have and do use many different methods).

Sharon

She's absolutely gorgeous, how could anyone say she was ugly!

How lovely that she's got such a nice home now.

Sharon

I wouldn't worry too much - it sounds as if he has a very luxurious kennel anyway, and being a thick coated breed, he's obviously much happier there.

The only disadvantage to having a dog living outside and not in the house with the family is the socialisation aspect, but as long as you spend plenty of time with him (which it sounds like you do), there's no reason to try and make him stay in the house.

Sharon

Welcome Jake  

So what's 'new and innovative' about this?

Anyone with even a basic knowledge of dog training knows all that alpha stuff.

I'd also like to see the statistics to back up the quote that "99% of dog trainers use ineffective methods"!

I think anyone with a problem dog would be better off saving their money and asking Stan or any of the other trainers on here for advice.

Sharon