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Author Topic: Cancer - What Would You Give To Save Your Dog's Life  (Read 1839 times)
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k9media
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« on: October 16, 2003, 10:41: PM »

Hi all,

This is potentially one of the biggest projects we (K9 Media) have ever been involved with and it is something that we have been working with for the past 6 months.

Here's the upshot.

We were approached by an entreprenuer/self made multi-millionaire who has recently sold another of his businesses and was in the middle of looking for new opportunities. Like many people who have made their fortunes, he was interested in going into a venture in which he had personal interest. In this case his interest was dogs. Normal, ordinary pet dogs and more specifically cancer in pets. He is someone who, like many of us (myself included) has lost a much loved pet the disease and as such he also happened to be one of the founder members of the Animal Cancer Trust, a charity who he has since parted company with.

When searching for an new venture he came across a company who were specialists in predictive life science (in plain English, apparently this means they make products that can tell or predict illness, ailments or diseases before they occur and thus administer relevant treatment)

This particular company had managed to crack (by accident almost) the code for detecting cancer in dogs (as well as a variety of other conditions) Like most scientists, they went to the head of the company and said 'hey, look what we've just done. Let's develop this into a marketable product and we could help save the lives of literally millions of pets around the world' Problem was, head of the company was only interested in human products and absolutely nothing else.

Since this breakthrough the scientists left the company, met up with the entreprenuer and are now full steam ahead with the predictive cancer screening product.

This is where K9 Media comes in. We were approached by the entrepreneur with a view to helping out with the market research stage of the product. I have personally spent the last 6 months with the gentleman discussing the need for the product and the likelyhood of commercial success.

Here's what I know already. Most people would rather prevent cancer in their pets than try and treat. Most pet owners who lose pets to cancer could have saved their animals if the disease had been picked up early. Most pet owners don't like to see their pets die. Most pet owners are very concerned about the health of their animals which is why they vaccinate etc, etc, spend a fortune on vet bills etc, etc.

Here's what I found out. Most vets would be financially a lot worse off if they did not have to treat sick or injured pets, therefore a self test kit that was not sold by them but instead through supermarkets, pet shops etc, that was likely to identify the likelyhood of a pet getting cancer (or some other diseases which the kit can pick up) would have a major impact on their profits. Most vets enjoy profits and like to protect them. Most vets also love animals but ultimately, they run a business.

Upshot. The general pet owning public would NEED and WANT the product BIG TIME. The petcare industry would have some problems with it.

Here's why I need help. We (K9 media, scientists, entrepreneur) would like to put together a focus group of pet owners who could get involved with the research stage for this project. We want people who are prepared to say why they would desire this product, why they would not, why they would pay a certain price, why they would not, what their concerns would be, what their reservations would be, what would be their initial questions if product was to launch, etc, etc. We would ideally like to do a webcast or online discussion with a few carefully selected but highly profiled pet owners - in other words it would be no use us having a focus group with people who all had the same opinion or similar backgrounds - let's face it if you are very rich and love your pet, you'd probably buy this product if it cost £300 a year, if were not very rich, you'd have to think twice - thus it would be no good us putting a focus group together of all very rich people etc.

I would love for people to actually get debating this product on this thread as the opinions expressed would be valuable research in their own right. When the time is right I would also like to invite people to come on board in the research stages.

I am raising the issue now because I have (finally) been given permission to do so as some comlicated licence agreements, pharmacutical stuff or something has been sorted at the developer end.

We are not making a big song a dance about this yet but are trying to carefully undertake the right research and keep everything organised. Problem is, we know for a fact that this project will snowball massively once it gets going and that will influence how we react.

This is why I am telling you, dedicated, intelligent, considerate users of dogchat, about this really exciting project before anyone else (in the world)

I promise you this will be MASSIVE worldwide when it is done and the people behind it are big enough to ensure that. I also promise you that it is project with a tremendous ammount of good will behind it.

I lost a Springer Spaniel called Penny to Leukamia when she was just 14 months old. I will never ever forget the vet telling me that what she died of was preventable and she could have lived a perfectly normal life with a course of drugs IF WE HAD KNOWN BEFOREHAND. How was I supposed to know? She went to the vets only when needed, to get shots, wormers or if she was ill or injured (which was never) The first sign I saw that something was wrong was on a Sunday, she went to the vet on the Sunday evening and she was dead on Monday morning. That was 5 years ago and I think about her everyday and wonder what I could have done.

That is why I am so personally keen to get this project up and running and would be very grateful if anyone wanted to email me with thoughts, opinions, anything relevant or even better still use this thread just to debate animal cancer and this project.

Many thanks and I hope you see this project in the same ground-breaking light as I do and wish to be involved in its early stages.

Ryan
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Yorkie
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« Reply #1 on: October 17, 2003, 06:18: AM »

Quote from: "k9media"When searching for an new venture he came across a company who were specialists in predictive life science (in plain English, apparently this means they make products that can tell or predict illness, ailments or diseases before they occur and thus administer relevant treatment)[/quote


Hi Ryan

Yorkie: I don't suppose you could tell us who this company is and their credibility in this field?

Ryan: This particular company had managed to crack (by accident almost) the code for detecting cancer in dogs (as well as a variety of other conditions) Like most scientists, they went to the head of the company and said 'hey, look what we've just done. Let's develop this into a marketable product and we could help save the lives of literally millions of pets around the world' Problem was, head of the company was only interested in human products and absolutely nothing else.

Yorkie: Sorry to put a query into this, but wouldn't there be excitement about this discovery and its implications for future research into human detection by the company concerned? Any breakthrough in predictive cancer screening whether in animals or humans has to be big news so I'm a little surprised that the original company let these scientists go rather than exploring ways of expanding on the breakthrough they've achieved.

Ryan: Here's what I found out. Most vets would be financially a lot worse off if they did not have to treat sick or injured pets, therefore a self test kit that was not sold by them but instead through supermarkets, pet shops etc, that was likely to identify the likelyhood of a pet getting cancer (or some other diseases which the kit can pick up) would have a major impact on their profits. Most vets enjoy profits and like to protect them. Most vets also love animals but ultimately, they run a business.

Yorkie: Oh heck, I'm going to sound like a real 'dog in the manger' now, but the first thought that struck was that vets would actually welcome this sort of product on financial grounds. When a dog has non-treatable cancer, surely the only money the vet gets out of it is from diagnosis and the final injection to put the dog to sleep - perhaps a few painkillers in the interim. If the cancer was screened early enough and preventative treatment was possible, wouldn't they make more money out of supplying the preventative treatment and having a long-term patient on their books?

Ryan: Upshot. The general pet owning public would NEED and WANT the product BIG TIME. The petcare industry would have some problems with it.

Yorkie: You betya that the pet owning public needs and wants this product, but I'm just a little sceptical that the pet care industry wouldn't.

Ryan: I would love for people to actually get debating this product on this thread as the opinions expressed would be valuable research in their own right. When the time is right I would also like to invite people to come on board in the research stages.

Yorkie: Sorry to have started this discussion on a sceptical note because this type of product is something that would be truly welcomed by every pet owner in the country provided it was within their financial means to acquire it.

Ryan: I promise you this will be MASSIVE worldwide when it is done and the people behind it are big enough to ensure that. I also promise you that it is project with a tremendous ammount of good will behind it.

Yorkie: Massive ain't the word, Ryan. If this product is what you claim it is a real breakthrough in medicinal science even if it only has animal application at this stage. I would think that the larger companies researching into cancer would be very interested in the science behind it and would love to take up where these scientists have left off (or have they left off - are they researching further?)
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« Reply #2 on: October 17, 2003, 07:22: AM »

LOL -I'm not a ''High profile pet owner '' but heres my two penneth worth  Laughing  

Must admit I'm a bit sceptical too as to why something this fandabbydozzy would be put aside  
BUT my initial thoughts are -
If something was available from a supermarket or petstore-would I trust it ??  -Personally no -I wouldn't  I would rather see something like that available to vets so that pets can be routinley screened
As for price -I'm not sure, if its a routine screening then its got to be reasonable so peeps will continue to have it done .
If its a one off purchase in kit form then its got to either be a throwaway ( at a reasonable price ) or a one off  but re-usable .
Would a vet trust a ''home diagnoses kit ?? ''  
mmmm really what your ''entrepaneur'' is after is marketing tips   Laughing
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k9media
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« Reply #3 on: October 17, 2003, 01:35: PM »

Apparently the reason it has been cast aside is because of a major licencing debate and the fact the big pharamcutical companies are really only interested in pursuing human products on a serious level. I have to admit I am not the person to answer the background queries but you have already raised some valid points. Most welcome, keep em coming please.
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« Reply #4 on: October 17, 2003, 02:00: PM »

I am surprised that the pharmaceutical companies are not interested in the pet market as it is one of the biggest industries!  

I think most pet owners would be interested in any product that could potentially save their pets life providing that it gave reliable results but I think that for credibility it would need to be sold through a vet, and in that case why not a test which a vet could administer???  I wouldn't trust any product sold off the shelf if it hadn't been recommended by a vet as how would you know it was reliable?  

I think that any vet would be interested in such a product as an additional service they could offer.  My vets certainly has an interest in preventative medicine and runs seminars and evenings by drug companies for arthritis, for example.  OK the product they are selling is expensive, but in dogs predisposed to arthritis, the drugs used to treat arthritis and the pain involved is far higher.

Maybe one of the pet insurance companies could sponsor it???  Without wanting to appear negative or cynical there are few things which don't seem to add up here!
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« Reply #5 on: October 17, 2003, 03:01: PM »

I too think that we need more information,sorry

I am a little confused by one thing though,surely if this is such a wonderful diagnostic test surely there are implications that the test could be adapted for humans in some way ?
I know that the physiology of 2 species varies a lot but they research cancers using animals so why not ?

Also what exactly would be involved with being part of this group ?
Surely a lot of the queries could be aired on here and you will get a very wide range of viewpoints.

I am with the other members who would wish for this test to be carried out/supplied by a vet,I think that it would lose credibility by being available on a supermarket shelf.

How often would the test need to be carried out ? Annually or more often ?

Quote
Many thanks and I hope you see this project in the same ground-breaking light as I do and wish to be involved in its early stages.


Believe me I really really want to Ryan
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k9media
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« Reply #6 on: October 17, 2003, 04:30: PM »

Again, I'm not the expert but I did ask some of the same questions of the science people as to why the company was not interested in animal products or why the same theory was not applied to a human kit. Apparently they are close with the human version but in science terms being close with genetics still means they could by a long way off in real time. I was even given an explanation that in the future we (humans) will be able to get predictive analysis of certain conditions within a day just by what we leave in the toilet (yuk) a scientific toilet that can examine our waste and give us a readout of a variety of different items and what action we should be looking to take. I know everything I have put up at the moment is pretty vague as, like I said, i am still not fully coherent with it myself as it basically something that is in development. The science is there (certainly) to make this product but the people behind it are still working on masses of issues such as making it exlusively vet only, price etc. We've already had some great feedback from this thread. The fact that there is a general consensus that if something is not reccommended by a vet then they would be unwilling to trust the product is excellent feedback as I personally am very mis trusting of vets and have no problems looking for any alternative. Great example of why we need focus groups to get all sides of the argument in formative stages.

Thanks once again.
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« Reply #7 on: October 17, 2003, 05:54: PM »

I have the same doubts as the others, but in theory, here is what I would think:
1. The kit would obviously be very appealing to all pet owners (is this only a breakthrough for dogs?).
2. I would prefer it to be veterinarily controlled (ie not on sale in supermarkets and the like) as I would trust it's results more if it was carried out professionally.
3. I'm not entirely sure how it would help without the actual treatment for predisposed cancers being available. Obviously if it showed that (for example) a bitch was predisposed to mammary cancer specifically, then there are preventative surgeries you could opt for (eg mammary strips) - but what about leukaemia, or skin cancer? Something you cant treat before it actually occurs.
4. It would have to be affordable - when the first FeLV/FIV snap tests became available, they were extortionate in price, as the manufacturers knew that owners would prefer them over the lab testing, which takes forever *lol*. Also those on lower incomes would be missing out on something so important if it cost more than £30-£50 - especially when this is a test for a dog's predisposition, not an actual diagnostic test. Many wouldnt bother.
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« Reply #8 on: October 17, 2003, 07:33: PM »

Yorkie: I wouldn't personally have a problem with it being an off-the-shelf supermarket product, but I think vets would. I have the feeling that vets would take exception to a product that owners could beat them over the head with. In this respect, I wonder just how much they would act on the results - would it make them more reluctant to agree with the findings of such a testing procedure? I suppose they would have to if the test was foolproof, but I guess it would only take a few cases of the 'predictions' of the test not being proved for them to discredit it totally.

I don't know how this 'predictor' would work, but say they spot the very earliest of signs - pre-cancer cells - and the dog or animal never actually goes on to develop the full blown cancer, I imagine they could well use this to argue that it's just a 'scaremongering' product that isn't viable. Whereas, if it were available for vets to use economically at a small extra cost to run in line with routine examinations, then they would hail it as the best thing since sliced bread.

Isn't commercialism wonderful!
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« Reply #9 on: October 17, 2003, 09:17: PM »

I've personally never used a shop bought predictor kit on myself, apart from a pregnancy test, but I got that backed up by my doctor.  I just dont trust something that means you avoid the doctor.
I'd feel the same about a pet predictor kit - wouldn't 100% trust something that was sold in a shop.  Now if the vet had them, I'd trust them.  If you get me.
Those not clued up on veterinary treatments for pets (like me!) would group them along with the shop bought wormers and flea treatments etc - not as good as what you can get from the vets, even if it was the same product, we wouldn't necessarily know that.
Suppose that could be fixed by packaging info.
But - then there is the other side, which would be that if bought from a pet shop/supermarket etc they would probably be cheaper, and therefore at the vets it would cost you more for the same thing.  And then you have the possibility of vets being given commission for each one used, and therefore not knowing whether it's the right product for your dog, or whether the vet is pushing it because he makes money out of it.
Definitely more info required.
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« Reply #10 on: December 13, 2003, 10:36: PM »

You are saying that his Company has a product that can predict cancer in all forms and have a product that can be purchased to cure cancer?
Copper
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« Reply #11 on: December 14, 2006, 03:45: PM »

I find this highly unbelievable too.  As scientists at the moment are only just getting into DNA with dogs and finding things out about certain illnesses I can't see this subject working.  Different breeds have different DNA and different illnesses.  The field is so complex I just can't see how on simple little instrument could work on all dogs?

I want more DNA'ing to be carried out so that one day we can work towards irradicating, HD, cancers, myosthenia gravis etc. in dogs but this seems many years away but I for one would go more for this side of things as it would be more scientific in my eyes.
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« Reply #12 on: December 14, 2006, 05:43: PM »

Hi just thought id jump in.As my older dog is now dying of cancer, i would like to say that i would buy a kit anywhere fromm anyone, that could have detected this a lot sooner.I dont trust vets i think they are all out to make as much money as possible at pet owners expense. I would rather see it on a pet shop shelf. Just my opinion.
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« Reply #13 on: December 20, 2006, 06:17: AM »

Some vets are out to make money..but then some have 7 years worth of student loans to pay off. One of my friends has just qualified, and she has £32,000 to pay off. Plus her credit cards and overdraft. So I can understand why they charge what they do. And it is private healthcare!

Yes I would love to be able to buy something like that. Would be great if we could have detections for HD, CEA, heart problems etc.
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« Reply #14 on: December 20, 2006, 02:45: PM »

http://www.pet-screen.com - I know these guys very well. If you own a breed which is suseptible to cancer, get in touch with Dr Kevin Slater at Pet Screen. They really, really know their onions and they are developing screening techniques which could keep tens of thousands of dogs alive.
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