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Author Topic: Prong collar debate  (Read 5583 times)
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Zeus And Apollos Mom
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« on: July 09, 2004, 02:00: AM »

As an owner of large dogs, I use a prong collar on my Rottie & GSD.  It give me more control should they get the idea to go after a cat or squireal.  I know there are so many differant opions on this type of collar and it's uses.  I took classes on how to use one properly, and it's not the least bit painfull.  it's a slight pinch, and get their attetion, when a regular slip collar they pull against it.   Just wonder where everyone stands on this training tool.
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SpeedsMum
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« Reply #1 on: July 09, 2004, 09:20: AM »

It's almost impossible to get one here, pet shops don't sell them and most of the places you can buy them online are in the US.  I don't have a problem with any training aid when, like in your case,  they're used properly Smile

Annette
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« Reply #2 on: July 11, 2004, 01:08: AM »

Is that the collar where the prongs are on the inside and dig into the dog when it pulls?I have seen them used by a German girl who used to walk with us.I really hope she was using hers wrongly as when she pulled on the collar the dog screamed it's head off.Mind you she did'nt walk with my pal and I for long as she decided to lift Truffle up by the scruff of the neck and shake her for jumping up.Ok when a puppy is under three months and quite light.Not such a good idea with a 6 month old Rottweiler(especially my 6 month old Rottweiler).Seemingly the collars are very popular in Europe,especially Germany.Personaly I would'nt touch them with a barge pole,and would suggest that anyone thinking of using one of these collars put one round their neck and pull it with the same force they use on their dog,then tell me it does'nt hurt.Why do these instruments of torture continue to be used when distraction and reward acheive the same result.My GSD(a reformed chaser)was retrained at the age of four,not to chase cats,squirrels and foxes by finding something she values higher than the chase.It can be done,it just takes patience.All you are doing with this collar is telling your dog that it's going to get hurt if it chases anything.This is not obedience,this is fear and fear is no way to train a dog.Try the collar on,I dare you.Is it any wonder they are so difficult to find in this country. Shocked  Shocked  Shocked
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LisaLQ
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« Reply #3 on: July 11, 2004, 09:54: AM »

No offense, but as it's controversial board, I can say it.
I think they're awful and I wish they were banned all over the world.
There are better ways to train a dog to walk nicely, why hurt them?
Personally if it was me I'd get in touch with a trainer who could teach me how to teach my dog how to walk nicely.
I wouldn't use one of those collars ever - I am against hurting animals in any form - be it masked as training or not.
It's no better than training an elephant with a stick, or making a bear dance by whipping it.
What's the point?  There are so many other ways to teach your dog to do something that dont involve pain, why choose the one that does?
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SpeedsMum
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« Reply #4 on: July 11, 2004, 10:14: AM »

When they're fitted properly, it's not painful for the dog to simply be walked on one.  But I've seen a lot of articles and suchlike describing the use of corrections with a prong collar [ie how hard you jerk the dog on one] and that I don't agree with.  For a dog that requires training with corrections, even a particularly "hard" one I think they're cruel and [and shoot me down in flames all you like for this] I think an ecollar is by far a more humane way of training these types of dog.  That said I'd personally rather see a prong collar on a dog than a choke chain...

Annette
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LisaLQ
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« Reply #5 on: July 11, 2004, 11:57: AM »

I'd rather neither.  The only way it can help train is by causing pain or discomfort.  So why bother?
Do people honestly not care about hurting animals or making them uncomfortable?  I thought the whole point about being a caring and loving pet owner was that you wouldn't want them to be in pain or uncomfortable - no matter how small or large that pain or discomfort.
I mean, why would anyone want to train like this?  Surely as a caring pet owner you don't want your animal to be hurt or shocked or anything?
I dont get it. Exclamation
Dont get me wrong, I have two lurchers at 28kgs each who pull like hell, but a harness has made it much easier to walk them.
And if I can walk two dogs like that with a split pelvis, I'm sure any healthy normal person could walk their dog without a prong collar!
People might be able to prove there's no pain and it only causes discomfort, but the whole point is they work by making an animal uncomfortable - they could cause severe pain in some - so why use them?
I know this may sound rude (but I'm not meaning in this case) but I do feel that they're used by folks wanting to look like they're big and hard.  Wannabe tough man walking his GSD on a prong collar, how hard!  Makes their dog look like it's mean and dangerous - exactly what they want folks to think.
I bet half of the dogs walked on prong collars dont actually need it.  Actually I'd probably go as far to say that 99% of dogs walked on prong collars probably dont need it - it's just a quick fix thing.
I personally think the owners using these should have to try one on and walk around with someone yanking a lead attached to it - then decide if they want to put their pet through it.
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LisaLQ
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« Reply #6 on: July 11, 2004, 12:00: PM »

For those wondering what we're talking about - here's a prong collar:

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Zeus And Apollos Mom
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« Reply #7 on: July 11, 2004, 04:48: PM »

Lisa,

I use it the correct way, there are many people out there who don't fit it properly, and they give the correction way to hard.  My guys tend to pull when they see an animal, but one small correction reminds them not to.  I don't use it because I can't control them, I use it to reinforce that I'm the boss, and they have to listen to me.  They have no marks on their necks, and when they see me get the collars out they get excited, omg, we're going on a walk.   As you can see in my pic, they don't wear them 24-7.

Plus I had agressive Shar-pei that was dangerous around other animals & strangers, the prong gave me more control over her behavior.
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LisaLQ
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« Reply #8 on: July 12, 2004, 12:10: AM »

I still would never use one personally.  I feel if you have to use pain/correction/discomfort (call it what you will) to get control over your animal, then that's very sad.
There are other more effective and humane ways to train a dog to walk nicely.  Even a halti would be more preferable to a prong collar or choke chain.
Even fitted correctly, you can't deny their sole purpose is to cause pain when the dog pulls?  So even if the dog learnt not to pull, he/she had to be in pain/discomfort to come to that conclusion?
"One small correction" makes me feel as if the prong collar isn't working as effectively as you think.  If you're still having to correct them, then they're still pulling.  So what's the point?
Have they done obedience training, puppy classes, basic training?  It's really worth it to learn the right way to teach an animal how to walk properly.  Ask KathyM about Dharma!  She used to pull like a bull (well, she is a bullmastiff!) - she had me over when I held her lead at 6 months old.  And I'm no featherweight!
Few weeks in basic obedience classes, she's now completely focused on Kathy and walks like a dream.
No prong collar needed, puller, aggressive, or whatever.  Personally I see no need for them.
Just out of interest, what is the "correct" way to use one?  As looking at them, they do nothing more than cause pain if the dog pulls.  So if they do something wrong, do you yank or give a "small correction" until they realise it's hurting, and they stop?
Cos looking at them, I cant see any other way that they'd work  
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SpeedsMum
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« Reply #9 on: July 12, 2004, 01:55: AM »

Thing is, I'd personally recommend a headcollar for lunging problems, as a harness or normal collar and lead doesn't give enough control for a lot of owners.  Yet a lot of people lately are saying using headcollars can damage your dog [saw quite a few posts in this vein on DP, one woman's dog slipped a disc or something similar because of lunging whilst wearing one]!  So what else is left?  

If you're a smaller person who owns a large dog, or if the dog has lunging/barking probs you need to have immediate control over it  or your asking for trouble!  Yes by all means go to a class as well, but during the learning period before the dog has ben taught not to lunge/pull [and that does take some time] people tend to need some help with control.  Those collars do look vicious I know, but according to people who have fitted them on their forarms and suchlike they're a mild pinch *shrugs*  I suppose people prefer them to the possibilty of being dragged into a road Shocked

Annette
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« Reply #10 on: July 12, 2004, 06:33: AM »

the one I tried on my arm was uncomfortable more than painful (but I didn't try it so much as a correction), but left indentations.

It was on my arm for no more than 10 seconds and I wouldn't like to think that I'd have to wear it for any length of time.

The dog it was being used on still pulled and lunged towards other dogs. Pulling stopped within 10 minutes of being put on a normal collar and lunging resolved with a bit of work from the owner.

Admit this was unusual (dog walking nicely within minutes of putting on normal collar), but it appeared that this particular dog was reacting to the prong collar more than the lead.
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LisaLQ
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« Reply #11 on: July 12, 2004, 08:19: AM »

Quote from: "SpeedsMum"
If you're a smaller person who owns a large dog, or if the dog has lunging/barking probs you need to have immediate control over it  or your asking for trouble!  (snip)  I suppose people prefer them to the possibilty of being dragged into a road Shocked
Annette


It would lead me to think they should have considered the size and strength of the breed/dog before buying/adopting.  I'm not saying small folks shouldn't have large dogs (otherwise I'd be a bit of a hypocrite!) but they should consider whether they can control that animal using humane and reasonable means.  If not, then they should think about a different breed.

I dont think putting an animal through pain (or discomfort) just because of the size of the owner and lack of control they have, is right.

Why not adopt or buy a dog they know they can control without one?
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SpeedsMum
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« Reply #12 on: July 12, 2004, 12:50: PM »

Even a medium sized dog can have you over if it catches you by surprise.  imho the prong collar is not inhumane so long as it's used properly, same goes for choke chains [although I'm yet to find just one owner who uses one on their dog properly], headcollars [I found a thread on another forum in which an owner had been advised by a "behaviourist" from Barkbusters to correct the dog by yanking on the lead whilst it was wearing the headcollar Shocked ] and ecollars.  

Annette
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feathers
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« Reply #13 on: July 12, 2004, 01:04: PM »

And I thought society was supposed to be progressing.These collars are quite frankly barbaric,and anyone using them should'nt have a dog at all.The combined weight of my dogs is 182 kilos and I walk all four of them on their leashes with no need for any kind of torture implements.If you are having problems controlling your dogs,take them to a training class.Or better still,call a dog trainer to come to your house and work with you.It will probably work out cheaper than the vets bill for the physical damage you do with the collar,and the endless hours of behaviour training for the psychological damage inflicted from the wearing of this type of collar.Quite frankly how any dog owner can say they are caring and then admit to using one of these collars in the same sentence is beyond me. Evil or Very Mad  Evil or Very Mad  Evil or Very Mad
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lindsay
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« Reply #14 on: July 12, 2004, 03:22: PM »

Quote from: "SpeedsMum"
Even a medium sized dog can have you over if it catches you by surprise.  imho the prong collar is not inhumane so long as it's used properly, same goes for choke chains [although I'm yet to find just one owner who uses one on their dog properly], headcollars [I found a thread on another forum in which an owner had been advised by a "behaviourist" from Barkbusters to correct the dog by yanking on the lead whilst it was wearing the headcollar Shocked ] and ecollars.  

Annette



I trained my dogs 20 years ago on choke chains and got good  loose lead walks - BUT  to be honest i did have to hurt my dogs and I am ASHAMED of that!!  Crying or Very sad  Crying or Very sad  and angry at the books at trainers of the time who told me this was what one had to do.  

I both fitted and used them correctly.  I do know one person who uses a prong collar and she has big dogs and she herself is very small.....but she never ever jerks the collar.

There was a case of a rottie grabbing his owner's leg with both front paws....and he was diagnosed as dominant .... Rolling Eyes ....once the prong collar was off he stoppedhis bizarre behaviour. Also a case of a Weim with a perforated oesophagus after strong use of the prong.

Lindsay
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