You are probably trying too hard Sarah.

Put him in the car and take him somewhere quiet. Take a toy, take a picnic. Food for you and his dinner. Don't try and get him to play or eat. If he does it has to be his idea. If it doesn't work today try again tomorrow.

What have you done to help him overcome his fear of dogs?

The trainer you went was a bungling incompetent. This is 2006, 8 years after the first of the modern generation of e-collars came out – you should have had a full environmental safety and legal requirement obedience course offered to you and an e-collar should have been one of the training aids used, the trainer should not have charged you anything he did not give you any results except your dog positively reinforced the behaviours which are causeing you all these problems - another rip off positive trainer.



That’s typical of thousands of peoples experience all over the UK, the methods you are being taught are probably handed down from the Upper Plaistocence period.
 You only have to read through these boards to see your story repeated, time after, time after time, yet all pet owners who have used an e-collar show 100% success and they all came from where you are now and much, much worse, its called ‘positive training’, sounds good though.



Do I take it this is a separate issue? E-collar training would not solve that (fear of other dogs) BUT when you say he drops like a stone, that might not be fear, Collie types or those with Collie in them are prone to dropping, its just the herding trait. I am not saying that is what it is, I am saying that’s might be a consideration, IF it is NOT fear of dogs that makes him drop then the problem is that it is still an obedience/control problem and the type of training you have been given would end up with a disobedient dog, these so called trainers should not take your money until you get the results, yet another disgraceful consequence of these so called positive trainers.

I would be prepared to look at your dog for free and I would then give an opinion if I thought a part or full e-collar obedience course would be of benefit, because of your environment and the fact you have no transport to the country, ever, an e-collar course might be pointless, this is the net and because of that all I really know is if obedience training (paying attention to you etc) would help then an e-collar course or part course is the best chance you have.

Down to you Sarah but as you’ve been plodding along in circles with these so called trainers for 2 years I think you know it’s going nowhere. You have transport/driveing problems, I might (not sure ) consider coming to see your whole situation if you pay all costs, there is a possiblity, only a possibilty, that I go to the Bala area this weekend, in which case I am not far. If you want to consider it I think I can work out a way providing you pay my costs -

 Im fed up of seeing people put so much genuine effort into their dogs, year in, year out and end up like this with these rip off, so called, positive trainers - ITS A BLOODY DISGRACE.

Finally, I can give pre-stated goals of what can be achieved and how long to get there, I also state any significant limitations, this very much takes into account the environment, from what I know of it.

Please read the post at the link below, this is someone with a Yorki who came here looking for advice on e-collars, every time the results are the same success.

Panny
http://www.dogchat.co.uk/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=25532&highlight=#25532

It could be a completely seperate issue, it could be contributing to his not being able/willing to give me any attention out of the house and garden.  I'm not sure whether he is fearful half the time.  Sometimes I'd say yes, he is definitely afraid because of his body language, other times I'm not certain.
We've recently signed up for classes with the trainer I took my last dog to.  She isn't a positive trainer but I've seen her get results with difficult dogs.  So far we've got it to the stage where I can stand and talk to someone with another dog without Rupe going ballistic but he's still not with me as such at all.  He can actually be in the class rather than on the sidelines as he was at the other class we went to.

As to that thank you.  Unfortunately until after Christmas I've not got the money to pay for anything thanks to being off work sick for 6 weeks.  I have no idea where you are but Rupert is used to travelling on trains so there's a possibility we could come to you if necessary.  
The only thing that worries me about using an ecollar with him is the fact that he's so fearful in general and I don't want to make that any worse.

And also has no effect whatsoever on Rupert.  Maybe emptying a bucket over his head would but a spray bottle doesn't.  He doesn't seem to hear me speak to him while we're out.  He doesn't even seem to realise I'm there and on the rare occasion he looks round and happens to see me he greets me the same as he does when I come in from work.  I'm not asking him to play on walks, it's not important to me.  I would like a dog who realises I'm there though and doesn't have to be hauled to a stop or round corners.

That’s not a problem providing we can work something out, this has been on a long time and few more weeks can/have to be, tolerated.


I’m in London, what I need first is to assess whether or not IMO he/you would  benefit from a training program, including an e-collar as one of the aids. My reservations, based on what you have said, are that there are some things about his normal environment which might make e-training/any training pointless – in contrast to that there are a lot of other things (many other things) which make me fairly sure that you would get a lot of benefit from a short e-course, not least is the fact that I do educate people and they can deal with almost anything themselves without needing to refer to any trainers.


No, the opposite is true, a nervous dog (providing it’s not a physical thing) gains confidence and BIG quantities, what it cannot do is stop his fear, IF it is fear, of other dogs, but he would have more confidence in you and a better relationship with you as the result of e-collar training and this might decrease any fear, IF he has fear, of other dogs.
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Maybe K9 will make some contribution to travell costs and do a K9 Magazine  e-trained dog before and after xx weeks(around 6 weeks)
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and a positive trained dog before and after xx weeks - both dogs to be assesed as haveing similar backgrounds and dispositions. A K9 video or something?

I appreciate that it is difficult for you without transport but you need to help him with his fears as a priority.

I personally would never put a dog that was scared of other dogs in a class situation unless the class or group was specifically to help with that problem with hand picked dogs.

All you need is one scared dog and one aggressive dog in a class together and you will create a victim and a bully. They don't even have to meet, just a look across the room will be enough.

Even though your intentions are to teach him to be around other dogs and not worry about being attacked, he doesn't know that he won't be attacked.

If he won't eat or play when you take him out then he is scared and stressed.

Every time you try to get his attention when there is another dog approaching you are drawing his attention to the problem. I'd just move him out of the situation without ceremony.

My son-in-law has a tarantula and I go to their house to babysit. You have just reminded me that I was alone in their house with a baby and a tarantula (and 3 dogs and a cat) on Monday night but do you know I never even thought about it at the time because my daughter puts it in the spare room and doesn't mention it when I go up. If however she said "Don't worry about Rosie (yes the tarantula is called Rosie) Mum, she's in the spare room" then I would worry all evening that she had escaped and was coming to get me.


Exactly how does it cause you a problem? Is it just that he barks at other dogs or does it mean you cannot let him off lead for exercise? Does he want to run away from other dogs or does he go towards them barking to get them to back off?

Note to anyone who is unaware

Flooding is a techniquer used on human fear by just making the person do something quickly again and again eg holding a spider and not having time to think too long.


Flooding nearly never works on dogs and can make the problem even worse.

Just a little note for anyone thinking of this