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Author Topic: APDT Training Statement - Say No to Treats.  (Read 1893 times)
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Denis_Carthy
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« on: December 30, 2006, 07:39: AM »

APDT News Release.

The unregistered Association of Proven Dog Trainers condemns the widespread use of delivering up treats to dogs for the claimed purpose of training dogs, which cause behavioural problems requring the services of the quick fix quack, or behaviourist as quacks are more commonly known.

Their potential for accidental or absent minded misuse is high, stimulating dangerous dog misbehaviour patterns by means of the positive reinforcement of existing bad and dangerous habits and causing new bad habits.

They could easily cause considerable chronic behaviour problems including aggression, e.g the dog shows aggression to another dog, you try to distract it with a treat and so it will become aggressive in order to get a treat, frightening strangers by running up to them begging for something the stranger might be eating, catastrophic unreliable recall if something more interesting attracts it or failure to carry out an emergency down, resulting in road accidents or being hit by a bicycle, skaters or surfboarders in the park, causing unnecessary pain and distress to the humans involved as well as the dog, if it survives, and making owners liable for a fine for having a dangerous dog out of control.

A dog experiencing a pleasant treat out of the blue as a reward for the cessation of barking and other unwanted behaviours will associate the barking with being rewarded by a treat for barking. Once it stops barking and is given the treat it will associate the treat with the barking the dog was focusing on at the time, it will then start barking again for more treats, owners will have a noise abatement order placed on them and the dog goes into rescue with owners being fined up to £5000 first offence, £500 per day for every offence after, for life, a criminal record and maybe an ASBO.

The unregistered Association of Proven Dog Trainers condemns charging money and exploiting pet dog owners by telling them they can get a reliable recall with a treat. Pet dog owners can go to the local park and learn how to do this by watching people feeding ducks and squirrels, as free information to learn the same as follows:

Go to the park with some bread and dog whistle, wait until you see some ducks near you, blow the dog whistle and throw the bread towards the dicks at the same time, they will come and eat the bread, hold some more out in front of you get them to come close, just prior to releasing the piece of bread to one of the ducks blow the dog whistle softly and let it have the bread, you can use a clicker as well as or as an option to the whistle if you want to.

Repeat this for three successive days and the ducks will come to you to get the bread when you blow the whistle or click the cicker, at Xmas grab the censored and have it for Xmas dinner. You can do the same with squirrels, birds in the garden and mice in the house, no need for expensive one to one ‘behaviourist’ visits costing around £100 per visit or training classes or training classes which teach you the same thing.

What pet owners must remember is that the mice are not coming to you they are coming ‘to the food’ the same applies to your dog which is why it will not reliably recall to ‘you’ except when nothing else interests it.

When treats are used correctly or incorrectly, the dog will associate other things which were around at the time it gets the treat, things such as children. This will make it bark at children because children were present when it was given the treat when its barking stopped and it will frighten or bite them, it could bark at a stranger to get a treat who then kicks it as a result, at a sheep if a sheep was close when it was given a treat for stopping barking at them and then gets shot. If it does not get shot then the dog owner is breaking the 1991 Dangerous Dogs Act and the dog will be put to sleep.

In inexperienced or experienced hands treats may take many years of repetitions of administrations of the treat before the rewarding of bad behaviour is finally associated with the unwanted behaviour. It then takes several seconds before the dog learns he has taught the owner to habitually give him treats after any bad behaviour, only then will he stop barking and start another unwanted behaviour to get a treat, he has then learned that any bad behaviour gets him a treat, he has effectively been trained to misbehave by being rewarded for misbehaviour.

Not only is this inhumane because he will get fat, suffer veterinary problems and die young, but it can set up a series of intolerable behaviours which can cause associated behaviour problems in future, his owners get fed up and he is put into rescue.

Unsophisticated methods of rewarding dogs when bad behaviour ceases, such as destroying the furniture, stopping the destruction and then getting a treat reinforces the bad behaviour with a high probability it will recur, the dog associates the two actions of (1) chewing furniture (2) then stopping and getting a treat, so it will chew furniture to get a treat. Unsophisticated methods such as giving treats are not necessary in order to train them to behave appropriately, treats are useful for feeding ducks in the park as novelty way of getting them to come, especially for Xmas dinner.

Such methods are often used as a quick fix by the inexperienced, the inept and charlatans calling themselves behaviourists. Humane, stress free methods which rely on a sound understanding of the dog's mind are more effective for training or bringing about a lasting cure for behaviour problems.

If the dog learns fast because of quality, humane and stress free methods for the dog, free from the risk of side effects and which improves rather than spoils the relationship between dog and owner. In the long run, will result in a happy, confident dog and satisfied owner and offer the dog the freedom within safety it must have.

Only in a handful of cases, where all else has been tried and failed, and when the condition is potentially life-threatening, can the use of treats which cause life threatening out of control behaviour and which account for more dogs in rescues than ever before, for reasons such as “Owner cannot cope with dog”, ever be justified, and, only then, in the hands of an experienced trainer who is capable of accurate timing.

Owners of problem pets need to be made aware that the unwanted behaviour can be altered with understanding and advice and that a 'quick fix' approach – ‘give it a treat’ - methods of reward can do more harm than good.

Denis Carthy APDT [ Association of Proven Dog Trainers.]

DwenCailey©02004.

For an alternative view go to the following link for even more twaddle than the above.
http://www.takingthelead.co.uk/5/shock_collars.htm
« Last Edit: December 30, 2006, 08:10: AM by Denis_Carthy » Logged

Doglistener
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« Reply #1 on: December 30, 2006, 08:05: AM »

The last rant is clearly drug enduced. There can be no other explanation.

Stan
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Doglistener
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« Reply #2 on: December 30, 2006, 08:49: AM »

Denis

I have noticed that you no longer link to your own website http://www.freewebs.com/deniscarthy/ Why is that?

Your new link goes to your forum where you are the only member. I see despite your claims that people are flocking to you and buying shock collars, that these people do not extend to your forum. I wonder why. This is the only forum that has allowed you on for longer than 5 minutes, and even they claimed you were banned forever, though for some strange reason have reneged on that statement.

I suppose if you are universally despised, then your own one man forum is perfect, you can make up all your imaginary members and agree with each other. You are never alone with a psychosis. You can even join your own APDT and start a Gill White appreciation society. Or have a forum dedicated to hitting on all the female members, like you did on this forum That would be nice for you Denis. I even notice your old mate good old Uncle Lou is not even a member of your forum. I would have thought two people who agree that putting shock collars on a disabled dog that is deaf and partially sighted would have joined forces. Now that IS sad.

Stan
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Yorkie
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« Reply #3 on: December 30, 2006, 10:29: AM »

Hands Denis a king-sized bottle of paracetamol and a head-sling for that king-sized hang-over
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Denis_Carthy
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« Reply #4 on: December 30, 2006, 01:08: PM »

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Doglistener- This is the only forum that has allowed you on for longer than 5 minutes,

No its not, I have been a member on your forum for over a month,I just haven't had time to post yet, or have I .
« Last Edit: December 30, 2006, 01:46: PM by Denis_Carthy » Logged

Emmy
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« Reply #5 on: December 30, 2006, 01:09: PM »

Hands Denis a king-sized bottle of paracetamol and a head-sling for that king-sized hang-over

You didn't manage to read it through Yorkie?  You must have a lot more concentration than I have, I didn't get past the second paragraph it was so boring and muddled.

Stan if you can't do better than this, please don't bother, you are even more boring that Denis and that is saying something.
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Denis_Carthy
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« Reply #6 on: December 30, 2006, 01:25: PM »

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Lassie- « Reply #67 on: December 28, 2006,
 Lets start 2007 off with out mentioning the E word for once.

Dear Lassie,
Thank you for the short letter of a few days ago.

I did try what you suggested, I tried warning people of the dangers of treats but a group of cranks graffitied my post, so, after much consideration and soul searching, I guess it looks like I might as well go back to e-collars in 2007 after all.

Bless, Happy new ‘E’ year.

Denis.
« Last Edit: December 30, 2006, 01:49: PM by Denis_Carthy » Logged

lassie
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« Reply #7 on: December 30, 2006, 01:49: PM »

Was aimed at everybody not just you! 
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Doglistener
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« Reply #8 on: December 30, 2006, 02:34: PM »

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Stan if you can't do better than this, please don't bother, you are even more boring that Denis and that is saying something.

Not sure what I said that warrants this comment. Have I upset you in any way?

Stan
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« Reply #9 on: December 30, 2006, 02:48: PM »

Here's a suggestion. Feel free to make of it what you will. New for 2007, robust and intelligent discussion - YES. Flame throwing and provocative signatures - NO. Know-it-all attitudes - NO. Let's try and start with a clean slate. I have absolutely no problem with the e-collar being debated here, none at all. I have absolutely no problem with people who despise and oppose certain dog training methods stating their case and I have absolutely no problem with other posters deconstructing their logic in an intelligent, cohesive manner. But just saying "I'm right, your wrong and you smell of dung" is not the way we want things to go. That's not to say I don't expect people to respond with personal insults when they are thrown at them by someone else so with that in mind I'll keep an eye out for any positive changes to what might be considered inflamatory posts or sigs and I'll make a note of anyone who throws the first grenade where it was not called for. It's advice, a suggestion (for now).

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Denis_Carthy
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« Reply #10 on: December 30, 2006, 03:15: PM »

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Doglistener- to emmy, Not sure what I said that warrants this comment. Have I upset you in any way?

I am not attempting to speak for emmy, but, emmy has freinds who are members of APDT and if I had any freinds who were members of APDT (which I do not) I would be very offended if someone like you went round claiming you were a member when in fact you are not, simply my observation and not intended to be a reply on behalf of anyone.
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Yorkie
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« Reply #11 on: December 30, 2006, 03:23: PM »

Looks to me like you have a task and a half on your hands Ryan if you want to promote sane and sensible debate on your forum/board. I see a lot less training debate on here than personal insults which, as we have seen recently, don't just stay as letting off steam on here, but go dangerously out of control

Emmy - you actually got beyond the first sentence? Smile
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Emmy
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« Reply #12 on: December 30, 2006, 06:09: PM »

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Emmy - you actually got beyond the first sentence?


I did manage the first 2 sentences because they were a paragraph each 

Stan all you post is the same insults all the time and they get very boring.
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Doglistener
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« Reply #13 on: December 30, 2006, 10:00: PM »

Emmy

You are right I make the same statements . For instance people are abusing dogs, they are putting electric collars on dogs that are disabled . Do you find that boring.

What I find really boring are the Lou Castles who have stated over 150 times that we do not understand the modern e collar as if that answers why he needs to use these devices just to get a dog to sit. I note you have not mentioned that s being boring

Stan
« Last Edit: December 31, 2006, 08:15: AM by Doglistener » Logged
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« Reply #14 on: December 30, 2006, 10:36: PM »

Grenade?
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