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Author Topic: Need help understanding our puppy's aggression  (Read 180 times)
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barclay
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« on: January 17, 2007, 11:23: PM »

Hi. We've had our 5 month old mixed breed puppy, Oskar, for just over a month now and at first everything was fairly easy going. However recently he has started showing a lot of aggression towards us as well as putting more and more distance between him and us.

If think he is quite a dominant dog and we have made some efforts to show him who is boss but he growls at us on a daily basis now and has drawn blood now on at least two occassions.

The thing is he doesn't seem to trust us. If he is in the kitchen eating and we walk in he'll stop and put his head down as if he were scared or threatened. Then the growling begins. We've tried stroking him and handing him his food to show him we're not after it but he just growls all the more. I would just leave him alone but surely this can't be good for a healthy longterm relationship.

The same thing happens if he is sleepy. Sometimes he likes you to get close and cuddly but most of the times he'll growl. Tonight however my partner went to say goodnight and suddenly without warning he bit her face.

He is very playful and we all love playing together and he always follows us around the house unless he's in a mood.

His behaviour is getting worse towards us, what can we do to make him feel better?
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sarabe
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« Reply #1 on: January 17, 2007, 11:33: PM »

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I think he is quite a dominant dog and we have made some efforts to show him who is boss

Can I ask how you have done this before I make assumptions?
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rubyt
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« Reply #2 on: January 18, 2007, 06:51: AM »

In what situation did the first growling start, what is your dogs history?
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barclay
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« Reply #3 on: January 18, 2007, 10:01: AM »

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I think he is quite a dominant dog and we have made some efforts to show him who is boss

Can I ask how you have done this before I make assumptions?

Hi sarabe. Just simple stuff people have mentioned like not letting him go through a door first, or sleeping in the bed with us (although we've not been so good with this one) and normally he'll have to wait untill we're finished before he gets his food.
It doesn't sound like much actually  Embarassed


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smokeybear
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« Reply #4 on: January 18, 2007, 10:07: AM »

It is very risky trying to give advice about this type of behaviour over the net because none of us can see what YOU are ACTUALLY doing or what the DOG is ACTUALLY doing, when, where, how so that we can deduce why and give some advice.

It sounds very much at the moment that the dog views you as a threat.  By that I do not mean that he is afraid that he is going to be punished but that he views you as a competitor.

Do you know what mix this dog is and have you had him since a puppy?

The reason I ask is that some dogs are more predisposed to resource guarding of various types than others and immense care has to be taken from the day they arrive home to ensure this behaviour does not begin, become learned, reinforced and therefore stronger each day.  As this will make tackling it harder because the strategy the dog is using works.

And dogs do what works..........

However it is a relatively simple matter to cure, but takes TIME, patience and a plan.

You would really benefit from having a reputable trainer/behaviourist used to handling these types of issues who can give you a desensitising/counter conditioning programme to follow which maximises your chances of success and involves absolutely NO confrontational techniques.

Look on the APBC or the UKRCB websites for one in your area.  Members of the APBC need to be referred by a vet.

In the interim I would strongly suggest you buying the book "Mine! a guide to resource guarding in dogs" by Jean Donaldson.  It is an excellent book which deals with all types of resource guarding and give you a step by step approach with how to deal with it.

However as I do not know the breed or background of your puppy or your experience again I would stress that you need the input of someone who is at your home who can see the interaction between you and your dog.

Good luck.
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mahalia
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« Reply #5 on: January 18, 2007, 10:14: AM »

I probably not the best person for advice about this type of behaviour in dogs because i have never experienced it, you need to make your mark as the pack leader as soon as you get your dog, when i got my dog i started straight away. i pretend to eat her food before i give it to her (pack leaders always eat first) i walk through doors first ect ect.
When your dog gets aggresive have you tried leaving the room and giving your dog time out, normally people would put the dog in a other room but obviously you should not pick up a dog thats growling at you so i would try saying no in a stern voice and then just walk out the room he will eventually get the message.
good luck
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barclay
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« Reply #6 on: January 18, 2007, 10:36: AM »

In what situation did the first growling start, what is your dogs history?

Well what we know about him is pretty limited.
The woman who gave Oskar to us said that his mother was a stray (really alot of them where  we live). She was very reluctant to tell us more so I can't say much more than that, just that the farther is a Lab and that he pretty much dominated the rest of his litter.

The first time I heared Oskar growl was towards other dogs. We're trying to force more interdoggy contact in the hope that this will somehow help. The first time he growled at us was during play and then more seriously when we took back some food  (his number one priority in life) that he had stolen.

Oskar bites a lot. Whenever we play I know I'll spend much of the time just fending him off. Normally his bites are just friendly mouthing but he also loves to go for our clothes and then it can be really hard to get him off. We've had a kind of zero tolerance policy towards this since he started snapping at other people. But to be honest progess is slow. Oskar is a friendly dog but sometimes he just seems a bit confused. He can go from growling to friendly play in the space of a minute.




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sarabe
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« Reply #7 on: January 18, 2007, 10:38: AM »

Okay, that's good then. You've not been alpha rolling him or anything like that.

Quote
We've tried stroking him and handing him his food to show him we're not after it but he just growls all the more. I would just leave him alone but surely this can't be good for a healthy longterm relationship.

Here is your first problem. How do you feel about someone handling your food or touching you when you are eating?  You probably haven't actually stolen his food from him but I bet someone else has.

If everytime you sat down to your meal one of your family came over and nicked a yorkshire pudding off of your plate how would you react to their approach after a few repetitions. If however they approached you to add another roast potato would you feel differently. Me, personally, I wouldn't bother either way but do it to my daughter and you'd get her fork in the back of your hand. There is an absolutely brilliant advert on the telly at the moment for Quorn. "Touch my food, feel my fork" That is my daughter to a tee Smile

Same applies to when dogs are sleeping. If you feel that you should be able to do what you want, whenever you want to your dog then be prepared for him to tell you otherwise. Some dogs, just like some people do not like to be disturbed when they are sleeping, especially if they are dreaming.

Don't put too much store by the dominance stuff. Firstly, if you don't want him on the bed then don't let him but if, as you say, you have broken that rule then it is a stupid rule to have and a bit unfair on him if sometimes it applies and sometimes it doesn't.

If feeding him after you have eaten suits your routine then fine but it won't mean anything to your dog. If he was a wolf living in the wild then as a youngster his mum would ensure that he had his fill, even going without herself, if food was in short supply. If food was plentiful then they would all tuck in together.

Not going through doors unless told is an excellent thing to teach and all dogs should know this one for their own safety. You don't necessarily have to go through first though. In fact I would find it very difficult to close the door behind me if I insisted on all of my dogs following me out.  Very Happy

Some links on the subject of 'dominance' for you.  http://www.barry.eaton.clara.net/pack_leader.htm  http://www.clickersolutions.com/articles/2001/macho.htm  http://www.dogwhispererdvd.com/article-domin-myth.html

The first thing you need to do now is to get him thoroughly checked by a vet to make sure that there is no medical reason for him feeling so defensive.  Then seek professional help. You need someone to see him with you to give you the best advice. Shop around and avoid anyone who suggests any form of punishment or aversives.
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« Reply #8 on: January 18, 2007, 11:08: AM »

If your dog stole food never take it away from him it was fair game he got it just ignore it never take it back just think ah well i should be more careful in the future.

In what situation did the first growling start, what is your dogs history?

Well what we know about him is pretty limited.
The woman who gave Oskar to us said that his mother was a stray (really alot of them where  we live). She was very reluctant to tell us more so I can't say much more than that, just that the farther is a Lab and that he pretty much dominated the rest of his litter.

The first time I heared Oskar growl was towards other dogs. We're trying to force more interdoggy contact in the hope that this will somehow help. The first time he growled at us was during play and then more seriously when we took back some food  (his number one priority in life) that he had stolen.

Oskar bites a lot. Whenever we play I know I'll spend much of the time just fending him off. Normally his bites are just friendly mouthing but he also loves to go for our clothes and then it can be really hard to get him off. We've had a kind of zero tolerance policy towards this since he started snapping at other people. But to be honest progess is slow. Oskar is a friendly dog but sometimes he just seems a bit confused. He can go from growling to friendly play in the space of a minute.





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sarabe
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« Reply #9 on: January 18, 2007, 11:14: AM »

Quote
We're trying to force more interdoggy contact in the hope that this will somehow help.

Give him opportunities but don't force him please. I was forced to take swimming lessons as a child and I am terrified of water, still to this day.
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Lou Castle
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« Reply #10 on: January 18, 2007, 11:52: AM »

If your dog stole food never take it away from him it was fair game he got it just ignore it never take it back just think ah well i should be more careful in the future.

I'm going to have to disagree with this philosophy.  Many things that a dog steals from the table can be quite harmful to him.  Chicken bones and large amounts of dark chocolate are but two examples.  You need to get your dog to the stage where you can take anything away from him, food, toys, etc. 

And it needs to be done fairly quickly as each day that you allow this to occur he's getting worse.  This needs to be done by someone on the ground as you seem not to be capable of doing it yourself.  I'd siggest that you go to a dog trainer, someone who's used to working with aggression problems, rather than a behaviorist who may not even own a dog.  Try Googling a program called NLIF (Nothing In Life is Free) for some idea of what can be done.  . 
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Emmy
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« Reply #11 on: January 18, 2007, 12:21: PM »

Quote
Hi sarabe. Just simple stuff people have mentioned like not letting him go through a door first, or sleeping in the bed with us (although we've not been so good with this one) and normally he'll have to wait untill we're finished before he gets his food.
It doesn't sound like much actually  


At 5 months old he is still a baby and like all babies they do test the water but there seems to be more issues here so you really need to have someone come and see what is happening.

With going through doors first, that is more for safety than to dominate, a dog rushing through a door can cause an accident, get your dog to sit first, then it is more difficult to rush through the door.

Quote
If think he is quite a dominant dog and we have made some efforts to show him who is boss but he growls at us on a daily basis now and has drawn blood now on at least two occassions.


I wouldn't put this down to dominance and why do you want to show him who is boss, I have never done that with my dogs but they are all obedient.  2 came as biters but that didn't last long, if I had tried to show them who was boss, I would have made this problem worse.  That doesn't mean that the dog gets away with this, but get my way by other means.  If I accept a challenge that a dog gives, I will loose every time so I have to use my brain instead.

Quote
I probably not the best person for advice about this type of behaviour in dogs because i have never experienced it, you need to make your mark as the pack leader as soon as you get your dog, when i got my dog i started straight away. i pretend to eat her food before i give it to her (pack leaders always eat first) i walk through doors first ect ect.

We are not part of a dog's pack because we are not dogs so we cannot become the pack leader, we can be a leader though.  Pretending to eat before feeding your dogs is old fashioned now, it doesn't make any difference to the dog if they eat before or after us.  I have always fed my dogs before me because it is more convenient, and never had any problems.

Quote
The first time I heared Oskar growl was towards other dogs. We're trying to force more interdoggy contact in the hope that this will somehow help. The first time he growled at us was during play and then more seriously when we took back some food  (his number one priority in life) that he had stolen.


This sounds as if it could be fear and by forcing him to more interdoggy contact will make this worse which could be why he is growling.  Never force your dog to do this, but keep him at a distance where he doesn't react.   He will start to think that other dogs are not frightening things and that distance will get shorter and shorter until he will meet other dogs.

Dogs use growling as communication, not all growling is aggressive, it can be many things.   If he steals anything never try to take it off him, try and do a swop.  He is guarding what he has stolen so it must be highly prized, you need to have something even higher to swop with him.  This works, done it many times.

Quote
Oskar bites a lot. Whenever we play I know I'll spend much of the time just fending him off. Normally his bites are just friendly mouthing but he also loves to go for our clothes and then it can be really hard to get him off.

When he starts this, all play stops, once he is quiet and settled you can start to play again.  He will soon realise that this behaviour ends his fun.  If you stop all play when he starts, he shouldn't get to the clothes.

Quote
But to be honest progess is slow. Oskar is a friendly dog but sometimes he just seems a bit confused. He can go from growling to friendly play in the space of a minute.


He is still a baby and you need to be very consistant, there is no point in letting him get away with something one time, then not another.  Work out what is acceptable and what isn't then keep to it.  You said he seems confused, he probably is and only by being consistant will he understand what you want of him.

Please let us know how you get on.

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« Reply #12 on: January 18, 2007, 12:46: PM »

I would normally disagree with what i posted but if they have only had him a month and dont know what his first four months of life have been like if it was nothing harmful to him why bother.

It is much better to start training and redirection and other things, where food is concerned you need to be the giver not the taker away especially when you do not know a dogs history.

If your dog stole food never take it away from him it was fair game he got it just ignore it never take it back just think ah well i should be more careful in the future.

I'm going to have to disagree with this philosophy.  Many things that a dog steals from the table can be quite harmful to him.  Chicken bones and large amounts of dark chocolate are but two examples.  You need to get your dog to the stage where you can take anything away from him, food, toys, etc. 

And it needs to be done fairly quickly as each day that you allow this to occur he's getting worse.  This needs to be done by someone on the ground as you seem not to be capable of doing it yourself.  I'd siggest that you go to a dog trainer, someone who's used to working with aggression problems, rather than a behaviorist who may not even own a dog.  Try Googling a program called NLIF (Nothing In Life is Free) for some idea of what can be done.  . 

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« Reply #13 on: January 18, 2007, 01:22: PM »

If you were frightened of spiders, would you become less so if someone forced you to approach and hold them?

If you were eating at a cafe and someone tried to nick your Death by Chocolate, would you let them?

The dog is behaving in a perfectly normal way, for a dog.

I think you are right when you say your dog is confused; it is because you do not have the skills, experience and knowledge to handle the inappropriate behaviour.

That is why you need a skilled, knowledgeable, experienced trainer/behaviourist.

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barclay
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« Reply #14 on: January 18, 2007, 02:27: PM »

Thanks so much for for all of the replies. I guess we still have a lot of reading and thinking to do. I was never completely comfortable with our whole approach to teaching him but its what we'd been told and traditional advice often seems to make sense at first. Many of your replies have shown alternatives that not only seem to fit better with Oskar's attitude but ours too! As far as the alpha stuff goes, we never wanted to place Oskar beneath us in any way and I guess we just took the growling too personally. Am I wrong there? I don't think so... it did hurt us that he seemed to reject our attentions.
If he does growl at us because he seems threatened would giving him something help (stroking doesn't) or would he perhaps see it as a reward?

I think when I said 'forcing' I meant simply taking him to place where we know we'll bump into other dogs. I certainly wouldn't force anything to do something he didn't want to... I'm sure I couldn't anyw :roll:ay

Oskar does steal whenever he can he's quite good actually. He even stole from another dog (dutch courage?). I guess it something to be worked on as well as the biting. Quick question... If Oskar does bite again, and I mean seriously, what should we do? How can we show him that what he has done is an absolute no no? Which it is.
Heres what all the fuss is about:


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