I have seen an e-collar used once, about three years ago and in a park. I do not know for what training purpose it was being used, or if it was a service dog. Two passing dog walkers drew my attention to a man whose GSD was a good distance away from him. Suddenly the dog yelped, and my informants said "That man is using an electric collar on his dog - he should be reported for cruelty".

As this was my only observation, I have followed this, and other e-collar debates with interest and am persuaded that the e-collar is a useful training aid in responsible hands. However, I have not got a very great deal of faith in human nature, and, given the wide range of 'normal' human intelligence, I would be very worried if the use of the e-collar became widespread.

PS I'm also very interested in $3,000  , and I, too, would love to know how the 'test' would be judged and whether it is only open to Emmy  . 

PPS I wouldn't expect to win, but I like to 'have a go'  .    

Christina,

Only problem about taking the challenge is that if you lose, I think Lou wanted all his expenses paid (flight and accomodation from the US)!!

I will NOT be taking the test - I would fail, although I'm sure my dog would have fun chasing the furry, squeaky thing Lou would be probably be dragging in front of her.........

I think it shows that the e-collar was less rare than a clicker at the time...........

Why else would she have waited? 


It depends on your definition of energy that's "excess."  I think that any energy that the dog has needs to be used in the training, not bled off so that training can begin.  Dogs need to perform under any circumstances whether they're "full of energy" or "all tuckered out."  If training requires that the dog be in some specific low energy state then it's obvious that it's less  effective than one that allows the trainer to work no matter how the dog is feeling. 



Why waste time when the dog can be trained? 



Details can be found here. 

http://www.petfriendlyworld.com/chat/index.php?topic=5362.msg51701#msg51701

For Emmy I've raised the value to $3,000 and I only will require 99% OB instead of the stated 100%.  .  In this case it would be modified so that the recall is tested. 

Let's look at some facts, There are thousands of people who compete in OB, many of them professionals who have trained thousands of dogs.  It's quite rare for any of them to get a perfect score!  It's quite rare that they only garner a 99% score!  Yet Emmy, who tells us that she's not a professional and only works with the dogs of her friends and some rescues, tells us, several times now, that her recall is 99%. 



None. 


No, either the dog passes or he fails. 


I've placed it on dozens of forums and email subscription lists. 


None of them have been foolish enough to make a statement, as has Emmy, that they have either 100% or even 99% reliable OB. 



I've never made such a foolish statement.  As the challenge says,


The dog will be tested "naked."  Any type of collar can be a cue to the dog. 


The test will be videotaped and anyone who is interested can get a copy.  But it will be obvious.  In this case, the recall, if the dog stops his movement towards the handler or requires a second command.  He fails. 

Earlier Emmy wrote
And I replied

Nothing at all  But I'd suggest that you ask Emmy.  I think it's her way or weaseling out of proving her 99% reliability statement.  She knows it's a lie and she knows that she's cornered. 


There was no sarcasm about her volunteer work.  I was merely pointing out that since Emmy says that she's not interested in money (oh please . . . ) that she could donate it all to a shelter and help the dogs. 


I don't have $3,000 to spare.  I'm interested in learning about dog training.  If Emmy's method of training is so good that her dog can pass my test then she'll be earning the money for teaching me how she does it.  Since I know that her dog won't pass, no dog will, it's just a put up or a shut up.  Of course I know she won't do either.  But it's a way of pointing out that she's exaggerating how good her training is. 

Of COURSE the dog wearing the Ecollar has a choice.  This just shows how little you understand dogs, dog training in general and Ecollars specifically!  LOL

The dog touching the charged fence has a choice as well.  He realizes that if he touches it again he'll feel pain.  If what he wants badly enough is on the other side of the fence he may fight through the pain to get to it.  But he has a choice. 

The dog wearing the Ecollar knows that he can make the discomfort stop by sitting (for example).  If he wants to chase a rabbit instead he can try and fight through it.  The only difference is that the Ecollar can be turned up so that he'll DECIDE not to chase the rabbit and to sit.  This can't be done with the charged fence. 

Earlier I wrote:


Anytime you think I've done this you're free to quote the words back WITH the context.  The fact that you don't, over and over, shows that you know that this statement is just another lie. 

I quoted your words back to you and showed the forum what you were trying to do.  All you've done is to make accusations without anything to back them up.  It means nothing. 

Earlier I wrote:  


Next time the owner chose to abuse the dog with an Ecollar. 

Here are your words since you don't seem to be able to remember them. 

Not enough evidence?  How could that be?  You're an expert aren't you?  Wouldn't your opinion that she was abusing the dog be sufficient?  Mine has been several times.  I've convicted several people for cruelty to animals on just my word. 



I've just asking some questions Emmy. 

Earlier I wrote:


And making a fool of yourself at the same time.  Fine by me.  I didn't think that you could be any more childish, but you proved me wrong.  ROFLMAO


Because it's pretty clear by your behavior that it really didn't happen. 



The questions have been answered, you just don't like the answers. 


The reasons have been stated even though they're quite obvious. 


OK.  You're not required to.  It's really secondary to the discussion about Ecollars. 



You were asked if you did anything.  Then you started to avoid responding with any substance.  It's reasonable to believe, due to this behavior, that you did nothing. 


Ahhh the six year old again. 


Or that you're pretty good at it and they haven't caught you yet.  LOL. 


Not everyone, but certainly you. 


More accusations without proof. 


Not at all.  I quite clearly wrote that you were now "hinting" that you did take some action. 


Which is of course nonsense.  LOL. 


Well now I will assume that you did nothing.  And that's based on quite a bit of evidence of you evading and trying to avoid some very direct questions about what you did.  So you saw a dog being abused (so you'd like us to believe) and you did nothing.  Either you're a liar or a person who has no backbone.  The specifics don't really matter. 

Earlier you wrote

Since you seem to think this makes some major difference I'll rephrase.  You oppose BSL (Breed specific legislation) and wanting Ecollars RESTRICTED is very much the same sort of thing.  In your signature line is the phrase "Blame the deed not the breed."  Blaming a breed for the actions of a very small group is analogous to blaming a breed for the problems that a few cause.  As with BSL, the individual misusing or abusing a dog with the Ecollar (or any tool) should be punished for his act. 

Happy now?  LMAO. 

Earlier I wrote:


You did Emmy.  Here AGAIN are your words,

Methinks you lie to much. 

Earlier I wrote:



My words are clear Emmy.  You're the one who keep denying the truth.  I repeated them just above and added emphasis so that even you can see what was said. 

Earlier I wrote:

Not at all.  Here is my first mention of TENS in this thread.  I wrote: 

Caught in a lie again Emmy. 


Yes I am and I've invited you to prove that statement.  You haven't.  All you have is an accusation and no proof.  If it happened it's just a matter of you bringing it to your next post.  I know that you won't because you know that I'll find where you started the name calling and personal attacks. 


You can't find something that doesn't exist.  You can't prove a negative.  That's why you haven't quoted any of my posts to support your accusations.  I, on the other hand, have shown your posts just about every time I've made the accusation. 


Of course you do. 

Earlier I wrote:


Ever read any poetry by Walter Scott?  "Oh! what a tangled web we weave
When first we practice to deceive!"

Your web is getting VERY tangled right now. 

EVERY source of information on the TENS that I've found has said that the electrodes need to be applied directly to the skin.  There are two kinds of electrodes.  Those that have self adhesive conducting pads and those that use a gel to increase the conductivity, that need to be taped on or laid down on. 

I've now spoken to several very experienced PTists and they all DENY that a TENS can be used over clothes, no matter how high it's turned up and no matter what the situation.  But let's remember that you said it caused you pain at the lowest level of stim that it produced.  At that level it wouldn't even penetrate the clothing. 

I called two companies that manufacturer TENS machines and their representatives said the same thing. 

But maybe things are different in the UK.  ROFLMAOMSON. 


I'm told that there are two ways to overcome this, neither of them have any kind of "thin material" between the electrode and the skin.  One method is to use hypoallergenic electrodes and another is to use a hypoallergenic gel.   

And so once again, Emmy is caught in a lie. 


Emmy the thought of just being in your presence makes me queasy.  Touching you, even over clothes would have me hurl. 


You are very easily caught Emmy. 


Yes, we know that.  We now know that it didn't take you ten days to get a recall it took you four years and ten days.  The reality is that dogs have relatively short life spans, the quicker they're trained (as long as it's humane) the better. 



My Ecollar trained dogs are quite happy with what I want of them. 


What you REALLY mean that "with your methods" a dog "going crazy in a crate doesn't have the right mental attitude to start training with."  I have no problem training such a dog. 




Uh Emmy, this is a conversation about DOGS, not horses.  It's about training DOGS, not horses.  Begging the question again we see.  ROFL. 


There's no need for me to accept your invitation now Emmy.  I've already said that I accept that at the lowest levels the TENS caused you pain. 

Now as to that 99% recall you claim . . .

Earlier I wrote:


You've already won your challenge Emmy!  I admit that I was wrong and you were right.  The TENS hurt you at it's lowest level.  I accept that and believe you. 

Now as to that 99% recall . . .


I said I believe you Emmy.  But you also talk a lot about rescues and shelters.  You could donate the $3,000 to your favorite charity.  You could direct me to write the check directly to them.  You could direct the money to an organization that fights BSL.  I'm sure that either or both could use it. 




I don't have that kind of money to donate but I do have that kind of money to learn more about dog training.  If you won, and according to you it's a sure thing, you could donate your time AND the money. 


You've already won your challenge Emmy.  Now about that 99% recall . . .


Yorkie wasn't driven away.  She was shown to be less than knowledgeable and beaten in these discussions repeatedly.  She slunk off like a thief in the night.  You've taken up her flag but you're not anywhere near as good as she was. 


I doubt that your have a 99% recall and have given you the opportunity to shut me up for good AND to make some money for yourself or any charity of your choice at absolutely no risk to yourself (if it's true that is.  LOL) 

Earlier I wrote:


What you really mean is that YOU have to find that key.  I'd have just trained the dog.  You had to wait FOUR YEARS to train him. 


So what.  Obviously his damage wasn't so severe that he couldn't learn to recall.  Isn't it interesting that every time we hear about this dog he has some new problem that we've never heard of before?  He was abused, he was confined, he ran, he had brain damage . . . Is there some end to this list of excuses? 

Earlier I wrote:


Nope you have to win it.  Once you do, you can dispose of it as you please.  Now about that 99% recall . . .




I'll be happy to supply you with contact information for both Jen (Roma's owner) and Larry (the shelter volunteer who fixed Simon).  You can call them, email them talk to them, whichever you lease.  In fact you can join the Ecollar Plus list and get the story straight from Larry.  He's posted a file there that you can also read about his work. 

Emmy responded to Schmoo
You're a liar.  I answer all questions asked of me. 


You're a liar.  Show us the posts. 


Others haven't taken the challenge because they know that their OB isn't as good as they'd like others to believe, as in this case. 

I have personally seen modern e-collars in use and am acquainted with a few regular pet owners who use them as the primary tool for all training. My dog's breeder uses e-collars and highly recommended them to me. I live the US, and there is a national franchise dog training school that teaches exclusively the modern use of E-collars . There is a branch of this school in my area. The schools market quite aggressively - they do public demonstrations, they give seminars, and their website has tons of videos of their work. I have acquaintences at our local dog park who are clients of this school, and I too almost became a client because I was impressed when I saw a public demonstration.

(by the way, this is not to say that e-collars are very popular among the general public here either. Most regular pet dog owners here haven't heard of this school I mention. I just happen to have more exposure to them because they are located in my area. The all-positive methods in particular clicker training, are by far the most widespread here in the US as far as classes geared toward pet dog owners and those in agility and other dog sports.)

As part of their initial sales pitch after I inquired, an instructor came to my house with his 2 dogs and did a demonstration right in front of my house, this was slightly over a year ago. He had his dogs doing heeling, sitting and staying, etc. and more advanced things like balancing on top of a fire hydrant, all off-leash. My neighbors driving by almost crashed their car to see this big dog balancing precariously on top of the fire hydrant! One of the dogs was a puppy about the same age as mine at the time (5-6 months) and it was also displaying impeccable obedience and control, made all the more impressive by the fact that this was a young puppy. However, I noticed that the trainer's adult dog seemed stressed - vocalizing, stiff body postures, excessive panting. This did not look quite the same as the dogs you typically see at agility trials (who are almost always positive-trained for those same behaviors) who are also very controlled yet very intense, but somehow their intensity looks different, you can clearly see the difference in the dog's face and body language. I asked him, why is your dog vocalizing and panting when heeling, and he said it's because the dog is just so happy and excited to be working. OK.....

He also had me feel the collar in my hand and I felt that the lower setting did in fact feel like a mild tingle and you can adjust the intensity until it's quite uncomfortable.

As part of the demonstration, he then put the collar on my dog and said he would show me how the e-collar can solve the problem of pulling on the leash, in 10 minutes. However, my dog (who was 5 months old at the time) reacted very badly to the e-collar, even when it was on its lowest settings which I KNOW does not hurt. My puppy panicked, yelped, bucked, tried to hide, cowered, tried to run to me. The instructor said it's just cos the dog is startled and confused since he's feeling the tingle for the first time and doesn't know what it is, and furthermore has a sensitive personality (which he does). He said this is a normal first-time reaction and nothing to worry about and the dog will get used to it. The instructor was patient and kept working with my puppy for several minutes, but my pup wouldn't stop freaking out and so we ended the demonstration and the demo didn't work on my dog.

On hindsight I think that eventually my dog would have stopped freaking out and acclimated to the stim, like how many dogs initially freak out when Haltis are placed on their faces and then get used to it. But at that time, seeing my puppy's extreme reaction, and this was on the supposedly lowest settings, I was quite apprehensive and didn't want to subject him more to it so I didn't sign up for classes (that, and the fact that the cost was going to be substantial). I didn't rule out e-collars completely either, I just decided to wait and learn about it more first, and in the meantime use the all-positive methods. At anytime if I want to I can switch over to e-collars, until then it's not like my dog isn't getting any training, in fact in the meantime we've been using clicker training, and using his training in our everyday life together.

Since then, I have learned a lot more about modern e-collars. The most useful information I have learned is from Lou Castle's website and his posts on this forum in response to my questions, since when I asked the other e-collar school detailed questions about their method I only got ambiguous answers in return and an invitation to attend a (costly) seminar. Since then I have also been getting satisfactory results with mostly-positive methods, and behavior management for things I can't or don't want to train. I have no complaints for the most part, and my dog seems well-adjusted with his current lifestyle and the amount of freedom and exercise he gets versus safety precautions. Thus, for me to switch over to e-collars I would have to be convinced that e-collars will make a substantial and not just slight improvement in my dog's reliability and without any side effects.

I also come across e-collar users every week at our dog park who are clients of that school, and many of these owners I meet are satisfied although I'm not that impressed with their dog's obedience. I don't mean to be negative, I just mean that the owners are satisfied because previously they couldn't control their dogs but now they can so that is good. However, their dogs don't appear to be more under control than mine so I'm not motivated to switch over. I'm not saying that my dog is so highly reliable, just that theirs aren't either.

So far I've seen one e-collared dog at our neighborhood dog park that really impressed me - this was a pit bull who was responsive to the owner but was not stressed out. I think the owner must be doing a very good job of using the tool effectively. But this is an anomaly in my observational experience. A couple of my acquaintences have since stopped using the e-collar, or prefer to use it not for everyday obedience but exclusively for off-leash recall (to me there is a difference between the two and has to do with what constitutes proper balance between reinforcers and punishers for the psychological health of the animal.)

It thus seems from my observations that as a regular dog owner it is difficult (or maybe just uncommon) to achieve the optimum balance of having a highly reliable yet responsive and unstressed dog if using the e-collar for everyday training. I emphasize "highly reliable" because there's no reason to switch over to another method if the gain in reliability is minimal, or if the gain in reliability is accompanied by side effects. What I've seen with most of the acquaintences who use e-collars, is that their dogs are not more reliable than mine, or else if they are they also have side effects I would not want in my dog. Still, maybe this is the only thing that worked for their dogs, which is better than nothing, or maybe they were just impressed by the school's marketing like I was and didn't explore other methods in depth.

In my discussions on this forum with Lou, he has stated that his methods are different from this school's, and that what I have seen which I described here, is not representative of his methods. He says this "other school" 's methods differ from his in that they use much higher levels of stim, and that is why the dogs I have seen in person are either reluctant, or responsive but stressed-out. Lou has said he does not advocate this school's use of the e-collar because of this.

The reason I have been asking about videos or DVDs of Lou's methods is because actions speak louder than words, and so far the actions I have seen representing modern e-collars are from people other than Lou but they still do speak louder than just Lou's words, or any words for that matter. So I would like to see  Lou's words in action as well since he insists that his methods give better results than the other school's (i.e. the dogs are highly reliable but not stressed), and also are better than mostly-positive methods.




Yes, I have felt the e-collar myself. At the lowest levels it is very mild and barely perceptible. At the highest levels quite painful, and there are many levels in between. My dog totally freaked out at the lowest level which I KNOW does not cause pain to me at least. The trainer said he's just startled and would eventually get used to it, the way some dogs take time to get used Haltis. The the level at which the dog first feels it, varies from day to day and how distracted the dog is. Lou's website has articles that talk about finding the dog's "working level", the level at which the dog first feels the stim and which only elicits an ear twitch and nothing more. It is clearly not aversive to the dog at this point. The level at which the dog wants to turn off  the stim (by obeying a command) instead of follow a distraction is, relative to the level he first feels it at, a different thing I think. At least this is what my acquaintences tell me. However I think Lou disagrees...? And even if this were true - that the level at which a dog wants to turn off the stim by obeying is higher than the level he first feels it, so what if it's still not that aversive as to cause yelping and other stress behavior?

But then, even if the dog isn't yelping or panting (which obviously shows the dog is feeling extreme stress), could there still be long-term but lesser "psychological damage" done to the dog if he is constantly subjected to lower-level aversives which are not painful but still discomforting enough to not be ignored?

Denis
My dog yelped once in woods last week, no idea what it was (probabl;y stood on something) but she carried as if nothing ad happened - the week before she suddenly jumped at a wire fence - those fences mad of wire squares, above the squares there were two strips of barbed wire - it was an impulsive leap, in the air before I could shout no, her chest hit the barbed wire as she had aimed at the top of the squared wire - she was knocked back to the ground and on her side - got straight up and then ran up a bank sniffing for rabbits in a hedge...

Not a farmer type myself  - my guess is cost and maintenence