How incredible, a thread on e-collars has shot to 8 pages in no time at all. Who would have thunk it!

We like to keep you busy and out of trouble Ryan

Since you're not quoting anyone, did you write this Seddie?  If not, who did? 


Your definition of "things that bring pleasure to" dogs as "positive reinforcers" is incomplete.  Negative reinforcement also brings pleasure to the dog. 

And your definition of "things that bring displeasure" to dogs as "positive punishers" is also incomplete.  Negative punishment also brings displeasure. 


Actually a balanced combination of reinforcers and punishers used appropriately work best.  As with most things in life, balance is works best. 


As long as the thing it wants to avoid is humane, I think the training is humane.  There's humane and there's inhumane.  I don't think that one can be "more humane" than "humane."  There's pregnant and there's not pregnant.  Same thing. 


As long as the punishment is humane, I think that the training is humane. 


Because it gives very good results very quickly. 



Timing is even more important with so-called positive methods than with methods that use punishment.  The novice will find this to be true very quickly. 


Odd but I haven't seen a discussion of forced fetch anywhere in this conversation.  I've never heard of anyone advocate squeezing a dog's testicles as part of that training.  Is this something that's done in the UK? 


Actually with most collars there are far more than five higher settings.  But why would anyone want to use them if the lowest one gives such fast results?  Similarly if someone using so-called positive methods thinks that one bit of food is good than many must be better.  Soon a dog is suffering from being overweight and its attendant health problems.  Nothing is foolproof. 



Yep that's true.  Do you have some point with this comment? 

"Denny-boy?"  Do you have some special relationship with Denis that the rest of us aren't aware of?  LOL. 


OK thanks.  Lot of people find them extremely useful. 


Me too.  But since they work so well and so quickly, I'll probably never train a dog without using one again.  I think that they're so humane and so easy for a beginner to learn to use that I advocate them for basic training for most dogs.  I think they're far easier than any method that uses so-called positive techniques. 


Pressing buttons without direction won't get you anything.  With a purpose and a method, it will get you quite far.  But "respect and understanding" will get you nothing without some purpose and method in mind. 


Actually an Ecollar can be used for "day-to-day obedience" quite well. 


This is an extremely limited idea of what an Ecollar is, how it's used and what it can do.  Joker based on this comment, I'd say that you've barely scratched the surface as to how an Ecollar can be used.  If this is all you think Ecollars can be used for, no wonder you aren't fond of them. 

Dogs can easily be trained for basic OB with one.  They can be used to train a dog NOT to even start the chasing you describe here.  They can be used to give a fearful dog confidence and to make an aggressive dog stop his aggression.  How to do all this, and more, is in articles on my website. 

BTW the Ecollars that we're discussing here do not include collars that spray water, air or chemicals.  While they may have a vibration mode they also have a mode that emits electrical stims. 

OK.  My feelings aren't hurt.  LOL


If you're annoyed and you want to avoid that feeling, I'd suggest that you not bother to read the thread. 


No one is bullying you Max.  We're merely presenting the truth about Ecollars.  If you can't accept those truths it's your loss. 

And to go back to your original questions. 


No, they're not. 


To put it into terms that people are familiar with.  An Ecollar used, as I advocate, emits 0.000005 Joules.  An abdominal energizer, one of those passive stomach exercisers, emits 0.914 joules, almost 183,000 times more powerful.  An electric fence charger emits 3.2 Joules, 640,000 times more powerful.  A defibrillator emits 360 Joules, 72,000,000 times more powerful.  Ecollars are best used where the dog first feels the stim at the lowest levels. 


There are two parts to them.  One part the dog wears on a collar.  The other part is held by the trainer where he can set the stim level and press buttons to deliver stim to the collar unit. 


Yes.  Different models have various numbers of settings.  Some have as few as a couple of levels and some have as many as 127 levels. 


They're not banned because your government didn't fall for the pseudoscientific studies, that don't apply to modern use of the tool that were presented to them in an effort to ban the Ecollar.  Many of them use Ecollars and they know that they're neither inhumane nor cruel. 

Earlier I wrote:


Actually I can speak for many others on this.  I went to physical therapy for many years and saw the TENS units used on hundreds of people.  Because of my interest in Ecollars and realizing that they had many similarities to Ecollars, I asked them about their experiences with them.  I also asked the PT Techs about this. 



You are the first person that I've ever heard who has ever said that even at the lowest level she found the TENS machine painful.  This was also the experience of the ten or so very experienced PT Techs that I asked about this.  At the lowest level most people couldn't even feel it! 

You won't mind if I have a healthy dose of skepticism about your statement will you?  Especially given the way that you feel about Ecollars.  LOL. 

Earlier I wrote:


I've seen nylon leashes break and seen their loops come unsewn.  To say that they don't is absurd.  It just shows that it hasn't happened to you. 

Additionally since nylon "burns" when a dog pulls it through the owner's hand doing so can make the owner drop it.  If they don't have the loop over their hand the dog is gone. 

And many people use retractable leashes, such as the Flexi which don't even offer a loop.  If a dog takes off running they can easily be pulled from the owner's hand when the dog hits the end of the leash. 

I think you said that you "worked with dogs."  How many dogs have you "worked with" and can you describe this work? 


That's not necessary either.  Nylon can be damaged by the UV rays of the sun in ways that don't show up until it's too late.  They can be stepped on or run over by a car and cut internally so that the damage isn't visible on the outside. 


Again, quite wrong.  Harnesses are subject to the same kinds of damage from the sun and physical damage as leashes and collars. 



Yep that's right.  And many pet owners find this happening to them.  They don't want to "hurt" or "choke" Fluffy so they don't put his collar on tightly enough. 



Of course not Joker, you're the perfect dog owner.   Nothing like this could ever happen to you! 

Even in this small thread there's at least one owner who's big enough to admit that it's happened to her.  Take a look around this forum and you'll find plenty of people that it's happened to.  When it does, if the dog doesn't have a good recall (and there are plenty of people who don't bother because they "always" have their dog on a leash) he's gone.  If there's a busy street nearby it's only a matter of luck if he doesn't run into it. 

If you haven't had this happen it's only a matter of time.  I've seen all of them happen with both nylon and leather. 


As has been said MANY times, they trained dogs without them.  What did they do before clickers?  What did they do before head halters?  What did they do before (fill in the blank with your tool of choice)? 

Ecollars are here now and they make training much easier and faster.  They also make it possible to do something that no other tool allows, giving the dog a "tap on the shoulder" when he's at a distance from the handler.