We're talking about a very narrow segment of dogs in shelters.  We're not talking about everything that goes on in the UK. 


Emmy when this came up I made three phone calls to the UK to people who are shelter directors in various large cities there.  They told me that the situation is just about identical in the UK and the US. 



Earlier I wrote:


I don't think that I've ever said that I've "done seminars" in the UK.  If you disagree, feel free to find that post and bring it here. 


Not every rescue organization here does it.  For you to make this comment just shows how little you know about what's going on in rescue organizations in the US. 

Earlier you wrote:

And I responded: 


You missed the point.  You said, the dog "will only respond to positive methods."  (Emphasis added.)

The fact is that since you didn't try other methods you have no idea if she'd have responded to them or not. 


The Ecollar could have stopped her running so that her training could have started. 


Do you have some point?  We were discussing the reasons that dogs wind up in rescue not what is done with them afterwards.  In that, the US and the UK are quite similar, as I've said. 


Again, the converse is true.  So what? 

Earlier I wrote:


As always happens with this discussion people start talking about abuse and misuse instead of talking about proper use.  What you describe here is an aberration, a good example of child abuse.  It's not common and it's not what should be being discussed unless your intent is to side-track the conversation, which it may very well be. 


Oh nonsense.  People are people no matter what country they're from.  Human nature isn't particular to any single country.  That's why it's called it's called HUMAN nature, not "US nature" or "UK nature." 


This has nothing to do with this, or any conversation that's pertinent to the discussion of Ecollars. 


We're talking about one very specific thing here; why dogs are in shelters.  It has nothing to do with how people live. 

Earlier I wrote:


You're the one who wrote that you "noticed" when I fail to respond to questions.  Next time you "notice" it, bring it to my attention.  This goes for anyone and everyone.  Now you're just making excuses.  ROFL. 



I don't think they're boring; I find them fun as heck; and based on readership stats neither do the rest of the forum.  No one is forcing anyone to either read or participate in the thread or to read the posts. 


I didn't realize that you were the spokesperson for the rest of the members of the forum.  Did I miss a memo?  ROFLMAO. 

Thou shalt not lead me into temptation, now I have a little more time

Lou: Thanks for answering my question about whether e-collars are use primarily as avoidance/escape training. The reason I asked is because the e-collar franchise school I visited, insists that their method is not avoidance (or maybe it was escape) training.   

Do you have any videos or DVDs demonstrating your method?

At our neighborhood dog park today, an acquaintance whose dog is trained with the e-collar from that school, was recalling her dog. The dog stopped playing and recalled but very slowly, her whole demeanor changed in a second from one of playfulness to one of reluctance. But I guess it's better than not recalling at all. When I recalled my dog, he came to me more quickly and without any drop in playfulness. Thus my ongoing experience in seeing the results of e-collars is either reluctant or unresponsive dogs, or responsive but stressed-out dogs. I understand you do not advocate using e-collars the way that school does, so I'd be interested to see the results of your method of using e-collars if you have any DVDs for sale.


Negative reinforcement brings relief which is not quite the same thing as pleasure because distress is also involved in feeling relief whereas in pure pleasure it is not. Example: if you are suffocating, then finally being able to breathe is a relief because the distress is gone. Not the same as a pleasurable but stress-free sensation (such as inhaling a pleasant aroma when one is not suffocating). To increase the "pleasure" gained from negative reinforcement, the aversive or distress must first be increased (e.g. the more you are suffocating, the more "pleasurable"  breathing becomes). Doesn't this mean then that negative reinforcement when executed with e-collars is, by definition, based on giving the dog minimal pleasure because it's the result of a mild aversive disappearing. Does minimal pleasure always motivate the dog to obey a command instead of following a distraction, even a high distraction? If not, then to increase the "reward" for the dog, the aversive must first be increased, at which point aren't we causing distress to the dog? And in  the world of positive-only methods, deliberately causing distress is considered inhumane, especially if done often or as a first rather than last resort.



Just as there is a difference between relief and pleasure, there is a difference between "displeasure" and "stress", for example feeling low-level stim versus feeling high-level stim. Negative punishment causes feelings of displeasure, positive punishment causes feelings of stress.


I agree that balance is best. However the difference in opinion is what constitutes appropriate "balance" between reinforcers and punishers. Most people who use positive-methods, including myself, do also at some point use positive punishment and negative reinforcement, but would prefer to limit their use to an occasional event. From this viewpoint the objection to using e-collars as the primary training tool is that this means we are using negative reinforcement often rather than just occasionally, which is not what positive-methods people deem is a proper "balance" for the psychological health of the animal.

Maybe we can then debate on whether withholding or delaying a treat (negative punishment) which is employed often in positive-methods, is the same level of aversive to an animal as feeling the physical discomfort of a stim that is just aversive enough to motivate the dog to obey a command.


I disagree. Can one thing be "more cruel" and another "less cruel"? For example withholding a treat from a dog versus beating a dog to death - it is clear there is such a thing as "more cruel". So the converse has to be true, one thing can be "more  humane" than another.


I agree. That, and if the punishment is effective enough that it doesn't need to be repeated often.


If for a given behavior, positive methods work just as quickly and effectively, for example teaching a dog to sit in the house, then the use of aversives is unnecessary. And unnecessary use of aversives equates to being inhumane...or if not inhumane, then "less humane"

Along these lines, if there was no practical way to get the behavior other than to use aversives (for example crittering or snake avoidance) then the use of aversives is in fact necessary and thus humane if it doesn't also cause problems in the dog.


Every book I've read and every other trainer I've talked to says the opposite though. And as a novice I didn't find this to be true either. (the books and other trainers confirmed my personal experiences, not the other way round)



If this happens, it is improper use of the tool isn't it (food in this case) 

Amen K9Media!

I know a chap who has competed at the nationals at Schutzhund and qualified several dogs in working trials, who has recently been attending clicker seminars with great interest. For teaching most exercise he uses food or toy rewards, but he has pinch collars and an e-collar, and uses them on his GSDs. He views clicker training as another method in his armoury.

This man needs his dog to work in drive. The obedience routine in Schutzhund must not only be accurate, but the dog should show real enthusiasm and speed in its work to get top points. He would not use tools or methods that are going to squash that drive or produce nervous dogs.

I have no problem if someone decides not to use an e-collar (why would I?). I do object to people who want to limit my choices, usually based on poor information and irrational hatred of an inanimate object.

No, never needed to.



Nothing better to say than this Lou, you must be loosing your touch



Ahh!!!  because you heard people say that they don't hurt, you know more than someone who has experienced a TENs machine.  



I know others Lou so it isn't only me, but to say you know more than someone who as experienced a TENs machine, that really does show just what sort of person you are



There isn't any need to have a collar on a dog tight, there are martingale collars that will close over enough to stop a dog from slipping out of the collar then the release when the dog stops.  These are not like choke chains that continue to tighten but can only tighten so far and shouldn't choke or hurt a dog.  They are very popular with Greyhound and Whippet owners who's dogs have small heads.



Well done Joker, Lou speaks like this when he can't think of anything else to say that may put you down.



According to you, you put them on a dog right away to train them so don't wait to see if other methods don't work.





Then you should make yourself clearer, according to what you have said, you know everything about this country.



Which cities Lou?   Most of the pounds are run by kennels who have applied for the job of taking in the stray dogs and are under contract.  Many of them are also boarding kennels and this includes the large cities.  I go into the pound that covers Leeds, Bradford, Halifax and Wakefield areas, all big cities or towns but no shelter director.



Were did I say every rescue in the USA uses this method?  All I said was we didn't do it, putting something there that isn't there again Lou.



No, I didn't miss the point, you did, I didn't try any other methods because my methods worked so why try other methods?



She had spent most of her short life in a crate so why should I stop her running?  Those few days of her freedom to run meant I just waited a few days to start training her, but meant a lot to her, at last she was able to run instead of being cooped up which she had been for months.  Allowing her to run would do more good for her mental attitude than using an e collar on her and stopping her.



No, we are talking about rescues generally.

 

Then why go on about it, I said that I wasn't going to discuss it but you did so I replied.  You don't know how common it is over hear, according to you, you have only been here once so how can you see what is happening.



You are right about human nature, but along with that goes people's experiences and it is our experiences that goes a long way to make us the people we are.  We are not used to seeing guns in this country, but in the USA many people are used to seeing them.  

 

If you don't want it this to go off topic, don't take it off topic.  



It has everything to do with how we live, it is because of peoples lifestyles that so many dogs are in shelters.  The want a cuddly puppy but when that puppy is not longer cuddly the abandon it, that is their lifestyle.



Shows how much of these posts you have read because several have said that they are boring, it isn't just me.

I do love the way you twist things, the members aren't stupid, they can read what I have written and they don't twist words to try and put someone down but it isn't working. 

Ok, am confused now....Lou hunny, you say you prefer to train (and it comes across that you will ONLY train) with an ecollar..... Is that right?

Am asking coz you say in your website and I quote "I use any method and tool that gets the job done" before going on to say that you find the best tool for most dogs is the ecollar.... so presumably you try the other methods first, before using the ecollar? but on this site what you say is you just put the ecollar on and get on with it!

You know, you have to watch you say on one part of the internet as the internet is a very small world, and sh!t like that will catch up with you...esp if you advertise it in your signiture.

And yes, I'll admit i know sweet FA about ecollars...but anything that produces a negative reaction in a sensitive dog will not get my vote. I have trained a few dogs in the same way and it works.

Forgot to say...the rottie on your website.... was that trained with an ecollar? doesn't look at all happy....