Homeopathy and other Scams

[BJ]

I came across this the other day, written by Oliver Wendell Holmes Sr in 1861. He was discussing homeopathy and some of the other sham therapies that were prevalent in that period.

"So long as the body is affected through the mind, no audacious device, even of the most manifestly dishonest character, can fail of producing occasional good to those who yield it an implicit or even a partial faith. The argument founded on this occasional good, would be as applicable in justifying the counterfeiter and giving circulation to his base coin, on the ground that a spurious dollar had often relieved a poor man's necessities."

[KateC]

Very true :thumbup:

I think I like Oliver Wendell Holmes Sr :biggrin:

[Unicorn]

Yeah, homeopathy has been around for over 200 years. Looks like it's here to stay - thankfully!

[BJ]

Bishop William Crosswell Doane (1832–1913): Lines on Homeopathy.

Stir the mixture well
Lest it prove inferior,
Then put half a drop
Into Lake Superior.

Every other day
Take a drop in water,
You ’ll be better soon
Or at least you oughter.

[KateC]

Ooh look. A woman who claims she can "dowse" for stuff, failing a test.

Can I just say that when people are tested in this way, the tests are agreed fair by BOTH parties. This woman would not have done the test if she thought she would fail. But she failed. Spectacularly.

But worse is to come. Not only does she state that the reason she failed was that "it is not the right time for me to prove what I do" but - get this - that she knows where Madeleine McCann is, and has done for some time.

The reason that her information hasn't been acted on is because of the government, you see. But she definitely knows where Madeleine is.

And this is why I despise these people (not necessarily you, Unicorn, if you're reading - but I will if you ever go on the bloody telly). They are so sure of their "gifts", even when it is PROVED that they don't exist - they are so SMUG in their conviction that they are simply wonderful and special people, that they will even make disgusting, ludicrous statements like this at a press conference. No thought for the family of Madeleine McCann. No thought for anything except their own deluded bloody ego.

BadPsychics By Jon Donni - News (http://badpsychics.co.uk/thefraudfiles/modules/news/article.php?storyid=1024)

[Unicorn]

Dowsing for health is a wonderful way of empowering yourself. Shame you feel the need to put every dowser into the same category.

[KateC]

I don't put them all into the same category.

The likes of the woman in the clips belong in a category of their own that I couldn't even give a name to without resorting to profanity.

[Unicorn]

I would agree that this woman set herself up for failure. There are just too many variables when it comes to dowsing for missing people. Not something I would be inclined to ever do.

Now, dowsing for health, pretty amazing if I say so myself. I would recommend anyone to go on a course for dowsing for health - it is very empowering to the individual.

[KateC]

The only vaguely good thing I can say about this woman is that I find her (and her sort) so vile that it is making me feel almost warm toward you Unicorn LOL! :biggrin:

[BJ]

Dowsing is one of those practices which demonstrates that something can have been around for centuries and still be a complete fraud.

[Patience]

People can dowse for water very successfully and totally genuinely.

[KateC]

People can dowse for water very successfully and totally genuinely.

As long as they know where it is to start with :)

[Patience]

No - the British Army have used them when they're in a new area. My father could dowse and detect water, but he wasn't practiced enough to be able to tell what depth it was at.

I know a farmer who employed a dowser to site a new well on his land - he was told the different flow rates of water at different levels and when they drilled it was absolutely accurate.

[KateC]

No - the British Army have used them when they're in a new area. My father could dowse and detect water, but he wasn't practiced enough to be able to tell what depth it was at.

I know a farmer who employed a dowser to site a new well on his land - he was told the different flow rates of water at different levels and when they drilled it was absolutely accurate.

Yes you often hear that sort of anecdote but as with so many things, when tested properly dowsers tend to fail fairly reliably :)

[Unicorn]

Dowsing is one of those practices which demonstrates that something can have been around for centuries and still be a complete fraud.

Clearly another biased opinion from someone who probably has never even tried the technique.

[Mynona.]

Science is about proving/disproving theories. It's impossible to say that something doesn't exist until it's scientifically proven and impossible to prove or disprove something until many studies have been conducted, reproduced and compared. Until relatively recently, it was popularly believed that dogs were nothing more than autonomans that worked on a series of inate instincts and were incapable of thought. Science is now disproving that theory which was, for many years, thought to be fact.

Does homeopathy exist, is it wishful thinking, fraud or whatever? As yet, I don't personally believe there has been enough testing to prove or disprove its existence or worth.

Just my opinion of course

[Patience]

Yes you often hear that sort of anecdote but as with so many things, when tested properly dowsers tend to fail fairly reliably :)
Define 'tested properly'. Does successfully finding water in an area that you've never been to before count as a success? And to be able to repeat it again and again?

There's a fellow known as 'Don the diviner' (I'll try to find his real name) who's very successful.

ETA: Found him - his name was Don Wilkins.

[KateC]

Some dowsers being tested.

All of them convinced they would pass. Some of them have been doing it for years. Some of them make a living at it.

All with various excuses as to why they failed - one even suggesting that "God having a laugh" was responsible :rolleyes:

YouTube - Slaves to Super-stition (4/5) - Richard Dawkins (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gbhpdez4u_Q)

[Patience]

There's a video available about him called 'No water, no pay' which was Don's philosophy. If he didn't find the water the customer required then he didn't charge.

[KateC]

If you dig pretty much ANYWHERE you will find water eventually - which is mainly what tends to convince dowsers of their ability :)

[Terrier]

Drinking a homeopathic remedy will, if you drink enough, relieve thirst. I'm not convinced by any further claims on its efficacy.

There - I'm a sceptic. However, I do have (albeit only anecdotal) evidence of dowsing actually working. There's a family member of mine that's into all that spiritual stuff, and he offered to let me have a go.

He placed a small, pyramid-shaped object on the ground, gave me the dowsing rods and told me to walk towards it. The rods crossed as I was directly over the pyramid, & uncrossed as I walked away.

It was quite a few years ago - I haven't done it since (never had an urgent need to find triangles), but even though I can't explain it - I think there could well be something there.

JMO.

[Patience]

Don Wilkins would be able to tell you - in advance - how many gallons an hour were available and at what depth it would be. My husband met him - Don wasn't a shyster.

My late FiL worked for 'the telephones'; they used to use a dowser to detect where there was a fault in the underground line. It saved digging in the wrong place!

[KateC]

Drinking a homeopathic remedy will, if you drink enough, relieve thirst. I'm not convinced by any further claims on its efficacy.

There - I'm a sceptic. However, I do have (albeit only anecdotal) evidence of dowsing actually working. There's a family member of mine that's into all that spiritual stuff, and he offered to let me have a go.

He placed a small, pyramid-shaped object on the ground, gave me the dowsing rods and told me to walk towards it. The rods crossed as I was directly over the pyramid, & uncrossed as I walked away.

It was quite a few years ago - I haven't done it since (never had an urgent need to find triangles), but even though I can't explain it - I think there could well be something there.

JMO.


Google "Ideomotor Effect" ;)

[BJ]

Clearly another biased opinion from someone who probably has never even tried the technique.

Does your doctrine that only those who have tried something are allowed to express an opinion on it extend to incest and folk dancing?

[Unicorn]

No, but those that have experienced it clearly have a deeper level of understanding than those who just offer their opinion.

You may have an opinion on something but unless you have had the experience, your opinion is just that an 'opinion'.

[KateC]

Experience can be so subjective though, which is why you can have all the experiences you like but the fact still remains that unless something is proven, YOUR opinion of homeopathy remains simply your opinion and not fact.

[BJ]

Experience can be so subjective though, which is why you can have all the experiences you like but the fact still remains that unless something is proven, YOUR opinion of homeopathy remains simply your opinion and not fact.

I was talking to somebody Saturday who was convinced Ronnie Biggs has been serving his time in jail for the last 40 years, and was staggered when everybody else around the table agreed that he'd spent most of that time living it up in Rio.

[Unicorn]

Experience can be so subjective though, which is why you can have all the experiences you like but the fact still remains that unless something is proven, YOUR opinion of homeopathy remains simply your opinion and not fact.

Not true actually. But you would have to have the experience to even contemplate how much more there is to all of this. But you can't because you only have your opinion to go on. I have much more than that.

You talk; I do.

[Unicorn]

I was talking to somebody Saturday who was convinced Ronnie Biggs has been serving his time in jail for the last 40 years, and was staggered when everybody else around the table agreed that he'd spent most of that time living it up in Rio.

Poor example to give actually.

[BJ]

Not true actually. But you would have to have the experience to even contemplate how much more there is to all of this. But you can't because you only have your opinion to go on. I have much more than that.

You talk; I do.

The fact remains you can't provide any evidence homeopathy or essences is acting as anything other than a placebo.

Whatever happens in your head, in your spirit and in your soul may be a beautiful thing, and I hope it is, but once you claim that that thing in your head can make changes in the physical world then you should be able to point to evidence that that is happening.

[BJ]

Poor example to give actually.

It is Monday morning

[Unicorn]

The fact remains you can't provide any evidence homeopathy or essences is acting as anything other than a placebo.My work in this field is not about proving anything. It is about making the medicine.

Whatever happens in your head, in your spirit and in your soul may be a beautiful thing, and I hope it is, but once you claim that that thing in your head can make changes in the physical world then you should be able to point to evidence that that is happening. Why should I be able to point to evidence? Even science can't measure everything as yet, but they still bring benefit to thousands if not millions.

Has science proved the existence of God?

[Patience]

Has science proved the existence of God?
Define God.

[Unicorn]

Why do I need to define God. Can someone prove he/she/it exists?

[kazschow]

Slippery slope when you start saying you make MEDICINE Unicorn, I'd stick with essences... this is where everything when horribly wrong the last time before you went off!!!

[Unicorn]

Essences fall under vibrational medicine. I use the correct terminology; after all it is the field I am in.

[Patience]

Why do I need to define God. Can someone prove he/she/it exists?
Without a definition how can you know what you're proving?

[kazschow]

Okies... Medicine it is you make!!! But even you must remember how things panned out the last time you started telling folks you make medicine!!!

[Unicorn]

But I'm not trying to find out if God exists? I merely asked the question to make some people realise that we haven't proven everything. I didn't ask the question for us to have a long discussion about proving whether God exists.

It clearly hasn't been proven.

[BJ]

Slippery slope when you start saying you make MEDICINE Unicorn, I'd stick with essences... this is where everything when horribly wrong the last time before you went off!!!

That was clearly a typo ... lol

[Unicorn]

Okies... Medicine it is you make!!! But even you must remember how things panned out the last time you started telling folks you make medicine!!!

And I won't be made to feel guilty about using the correct terminology. If people have an issue with the correct terminology that is their issue, not mine. Don't try and blame my correct use of words with people kicking off! Honestly!

[kazschow]

That was clearly a typo ... lol


heheheee

[Terrier]

Google "Ideomotor Effect" ;)

Thanks. Interesting stuff:
http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/ideomotor.html


Has science proved the existence of God?

No it hasn't although some people try to claim it has:
www.creationism.org (http://www.creationism.org/)

Science couldn't possibly prove or disprove the existence of God. It would need a method of testing, which it doesn't (and couldn't) have.

It does have a method of testing whether medicines work though, even if it doesn't know the precise mechanism.

[kazschow]

And I won't be made to feel guilty about using the correct terminology. If people have an issue with the correct terminology that is their issue, not mine. Don't try and blame my correct use of words with people kicking off! Honestly!

No it's defo not your terminology that folks and YOURself kick off at Unicorn!!!

[BJ]

But I'm not trying to find out if God exists? I merely asked the question to make some people realise that we haven't proven everything. I didn't ask the question for us to have a long discussion about proving whether God exists.

It clearly hasn't been proven.

On the other hand it has been proven - many times - that homeopathy has no effect beyond the placebo.

[Unicorn]

Are you trying to cause trouble this morning kaschow?

[kazschow]

No more than you Unicorn!!!

[Unicorn]

On the other hand it has been proven - many times - that homeopathy has no effect beyond the placebo.

Oh of course, there are no blind studies out there that prove there are benefits!!! :biggrin: Clearly you haven't been looking in the right places.

[Unicorn]

No more than you Unicorn!!!

I'm having a discussion, but there is always one isn't there?

[kazschow]

Are you trying to cause trouble this morning kaschow?

and it's Kazschow actually if you are being pedantic about speling lol

[Unicorn]

:biggrin:whatever!

[kazschow]

I'm having a discussion, but there is always one isn't there?

Honestly!!!

[KateC]

Oh of course, there are no blind studies out there that prove there are benefits!!! :biggrin: Clearly you haven't been looking in the right places.

But by "The right places" you tend to mean "Pro-homeopathy sites" and the like, and blind studies are not enough to prove efficacy.

Yet again - to prove anything, from Aspirin to Essences to Fairy dust, you need DOUBLE-BLIND, REPLICABLE trials, the results of which have been analysed properly by UNBIASED means.

If that had EVER happened, then it would be accepted worldwide that homeopathy worked. But it isn't.

The odd anomalous result is NOT proof.

[Unicorn]

But by "The right places" you tend to mean "Pro-homeopathy sites" and the like, and blind studies are not enough to prove efficacy.

Yet again - to prove anything, from Aspirin to Essences to Fairy dust, you need DOUBLE-BLIND, REPLICABLE trials, the results of which have been analysed properly by UNBIASED means.

If that had EVER happened, then it would be accepted worldwide that homeopathy worked. But it isn't.

The odd anomalous result is NOT proof.

What has a properly conducted study, conducted by those that aren't involved in homeopathy have anything to do with that study being put on the pro-homeopathy site?????

You've used that argument before and it is irrelevant.

A study, is a study, regardless of where you find it!

So, all the creams we put on our faces have undergone the same rigorous testing have they?

I keep seeing on adverts, 60% of users agreed (sample size 98). Can we prove they work? Same thing but I bet you go out and buy them as do many others.:biggrin: Worse still, you have no idea if they are harming you or not!

[KateC]

What has a properly conducted study, conducted by those that aren't involved in homeopathy have anything to do with that study being put on the pro-homeopathy site?????

You've used that argument before and it is irrelevant.

A study, is a study, regardless of where you find it!

So, all the creams we put in our faces have undergone the same rigorous testing have they?

I keep seeing on adverts, 60% of users agreed (sample size 98). Can we prove they work? Same thing but I bet you go out and buy them as do many others.:biggrin:

But cosmetic treatments and creams aren't medicine. Stating how many users PERCEIVED an improvement is not the same as saying "Clinically proven".

And as for the studies - I don't know how clearer I can make it.

A study done BY homeopaths, FOR homeopaths is not likely to be unbiased. And the odd suggestive result is NOT THE SAME as reliable, replicable results.

If tests have proved homeopathy works, why is it not generally and undeniably accepted?

[Unicorn]

But these studies weren't done by homeopaths! Can I make it any clearer to you???

If tests have proved homeopathy works, why is it not generally and undeniably accepted?

That's like saying 'tests have proved all drugs work'!

Some tests have proved that homeopathy works.

[KateC]

But these studies weren't done by homeopaths! Can I make it any clearer to you???



That's like saying 'tests have proved all drugs work'!

Some tests have proved that homeopathy works.

No. Some tests have SUGGESTED it works. In order to prove it, they have to be replicable.

If it has been proved, why is it not known and undeniably accepted worldwide?

[Unicorn]

The nature of the testing is not entirely suited to homeopathy or other similar therapies.

Drugs work on symptoms.

Homeopathy/essences work on the individual.

Think about that for a while.

[Mynona.]

What has a properly conducted study, conducted by those that aren't involved in homeopathy have anything to do with that study being put on the pro-homeopathy site?????

You've used that argument before and it is irrelevant.

A study, is a study, regardless of where you find it!

Who conducts a study is very relevant Unicorn. For example, if the manufacturer of a product conducts a study, they have a vested interest in making sure that the outcome of that study is positive for their product. It's why independentlly conducted studies carry more weight and validity than those conducted by interested parties.


So, all the creams we put on our faces have undergone the same rigorous testing have they?

I keep seeing on adverts, 60% of users agreed (sample size 98). Can we prove they work? Same thing but I bet you go out and buy them as do many others.:biggrin: Worse still, you have no idea if they are harming you or not!

I won't comment on this apart from to say that the same statement can be applied to many things - not just cosmetic products. ;)

[Unicorn]

I agree that who conducts the study is relevant. But kateC is suggesting that all tests done on homeopathy have been conducted by those with a vested interest.

[kazschow]

You know full well when you see user panel of 98 on an advert this is not the scientific testing of the product... the fact it's done by marie claire magazine or cosmopolitan is a bit of a hint there LOL

I'm a product tester for a number of companies, all prods have been rigerously tested under laboritory conditions before they reach me. Infact my OH photographs many trials going on in his NHS hospital, very stringent controls are in place, and again all products have been heavily tested before bing let loose on the general populous.

[KateC]

I agree that who conducts the study is relevant. But kateC is suggesting that all tests done on homeopathy have been conducted by those with a vested interest.


No. But a significant proportion are. And are not replicable, because if they were, it would be considered proven to work.

[Unicorn]

You know full well when you see user panel of 98 on an advert this is not the scientific testing of the product... the fact it's done by marie claire magazine or cosmopolitan is a bit of a hint there LOL

I'm a product tester for a number of companies, all prods have been rigerously tested under laboritory conditions before they reach me. Infact my OH photographs many trials going on in his NHS hospital, very stringent controls are in place, and again all products have been heavily tested before bing let loose on the general populous.

These products may have well been tested rigorously but some of the ingredients are questionable and downright bad for your health. But I notice they are still in circulation.

[kazschow]

In your opinion...

[Unicorn]

In many peoples opinion actually!

[KateC]

The nature of the testing is not entirely suited to homeopathy or other similar therapies.

Drugs work on symptoms.

Homeopathy/essences work on the individual.

Think about that for a while.

Ah, so when tests prove it doesn't work, it is the fault of the TEST.... :rofl:

So if the tests aren't suited to the nature of homeopathy/similar and are therefore likely to show false results, it's entirely possible that they are just as likely to show a false POSITIVE result?

In other words, the links to positive results you post are, by your own admission, worthless?

[kazschow]

In many peoples opinion actually!

What products are you actually talking about here Unicorn? Or is it a generic, it's not an essence so it must be bad type statement?

[BJ]

The nature of the testing is not entirely suited to homeopathy or other similar therapies.

Drugs work on symptoms.

Homeopathy/essences work on the individual.

Think about that for a while.

Some drugs work on causes.

I have a condition with no symptoms, for which I am taking a drug.

[KateC]

These products may have well been tested rigorously but some of the ingredients are questionable and downright bad for your health. But I notice they are still in circulation.

That's wandering off the subject a bit though, isn't it? Whether or not these products have, in your opinion, bad effects doesn't take away from the fact that homeopathy isn't proved to have any effect at all....

[Unicorn]

Ah, so when tests prove it doesn't work, it is the fault of the TEST.... :rofl:

So if the tests aren't suited to the nature of homeopathy/similar and are therefore likely to show false results, it's entirely possible that they are just as likely to show a false POSITIVE result?

In other words, the links to positive results you post are, by your own admission, worthless?

I'm not saying the tests are worthless, it just doesn't surprise me that they have difficulty replicating the initial results.

Sometimes when I work with an animal or even a person, they have a layering of issues. And many times, one things needs to clear/heal before another can be worked upon.

I find this a lot in my work, not just an isolated case. So, in cases like these, if you give a pill to help one condition, nothing will happen, because something else needs to be addressed first.

It's like giving a dog something for his tummy when the real cause it has repeated upset tummies is due to being left alone.

When you treat the 'whole' person, the nature of the testing will not give you the same results as if when you are treating symptoms.

[KateC]

I'm not saying the tests are worthless, it just doesn't surprise me that they have difficulty replicating the initial results.

Sometimes when I work with an animal or even a person, they have a layering of issues. And many times, one things needs to clear/heal before another can be worked upon.

I find this a lot in my work, not just an isolated case. So, in cases like these, if you give a pill to help one condition, nothing will happen, because something else needs to be addressed first.

It's like giving a dog something for his tummy when the real cause it has repeated upset tummies is due to being left alone.

When you treat the 'whole' person, the nature of the testing will not give you the same results as if when you are treating symptoms.


Or maybe when you're giving a pill to help one condition, nothing will happen because they just don't work.

Occam's Razor.

[Unicorn]

Drugs work on symptoms, homeopathy/essences work on the whole person.

I suggest we need some new testing methods.

[IJF]

People can dowse for water very successfully and totally genuinely.

Some people genuinely believe it can be done. Some genuinely believe they can do it. Nobody has been able to show it is a double blind trial.

http://www.skeptics.com.au/publications/articles/australian-skeptics-divining-test/

[IJF]

Drinking a homeopathic remedy will, if you drink enough, relieve thirst. I'm not convinced by any further claims on its efficacy.

There - I'm a sceptic. However, I do have (albeit only anecdotal) evidence of dowsing actually working. There's a family member of mine that's into all that spiritual stuff, and he offered to let me have a go.

He placed a small, pyramid-shaped object on the ground, gave me the dowsing rods and told me to walk towards it. The rods crossed as I was directly over the pyramid, & uncrossed as I walked away.

It was quite a few years ago - I haven't done it since (never had an urgent need to find triangles), but even though I can't explain it - I think there could well be something there.

JMO.

There may be something there (although unlikely IMO).

However, as a sceptic/skeptic, I believe that you should be able to prove whether it really works by using a double blind experiment.

So far no dowser/diviner has been able to do that.

[Mynona.]

I'm not saying the tests are worthless, it just doesn't surprise me that they have difficulty replicating the initial results.

Sometimes when I work with an animal or even a person, they have a layering of issues. And many times, one things needs to clear/heal before another can be worked upon.

I find this a lot in my work, not just an isolated case. So, in cases like these, if you give a pill to help one condition, nothing will happen, because something else needs to be addressed first.

It's like giving a dog something for his tummy when the real cause it has repeated upset tummies is due to being left alone.

When you treat the 'whole' person, the nature of the testing will not give you the same results as if when you are treating symptoms.

I see where you are coming from on emotional issues and would add that in these cases it would be impossible to rule out other influences that affect the issue (ie training, environment etc). However, in the case of medical issues which many complimentary therapists claim they can 'cure', measurable testing can be undertaken.

[KateC]

Some people genuinely believe it can be done. Some genuinely believe they can do it. Nobody has been able to show it is a double blind trial.

http://www.skeptics.com.au/publications/articles/australian-skeptics-divining-test/

Great article :thumbup:

[Unicorn]

I see where you are coming from on emotional issues and would add that in these cases it would be impossible to rule out other influences that affect the issue (ie training, environment etc). However, in the case of medical issues which many complimentary therapists claim they can 'cure', measurable testing can be undertaken.

In my opinion most dis-ease comes from emotional, spiritual, mental unrest. More than what most believe. You can't cure x condition if the person is in constant turmoil; because that turmoil is contributing to their bad health. First you have to heal the mental turmoil.

[kazschow]

So my diabetes is because of emotional trauma, not a genetic link! My father and brother both having it?

Would the right essences CURE me of diabetes?

[IJF]

What has a properly conducted study, conducted by those that aren't involved in homeopathy have anything to do with that study being put on the pro-homeopathy site?????

You've used that argument before and it is irrelevant.

A study, is a study, regardless of where you find it!

Nope. Who performs the study and how it is performed are critical in the validity of the data produced and how that data is interpreted.

So, all the creams we put on our faces have undergone the same rigorous testing have they?

They are tested to a basic standard. As to effectiveness, they are restricted to making claims that can be backed up by data. Personally, I think people could save a lot of money by just rubbing dripping on their faces, instead of expensive creams! Then again, I think people could save themselves a lot of money by picking up a lucky rock, instead of buying homeopathic remedies.

I keep seeing on adverts, 60% of users agreed (sample size 98). Can we prove they work? Same thing but I bet you go out and buy them as do many others.:biggrin: Worse still, you have no idea if they are harming you or not!

Are you equating your 'medicines' with anti-wrinkle creams? :biggrin:

[Unicorn]

So my diabetes is because of emotional trauma, not a genetic link! My father and brother both having it?

Would the right essences CURE me of diabetes?

I didn't mention your diabetes or a gentic link.

I said I believe that 'most' dis-ease has its roots in emotional, mental and spiritual unrest.

[kazschow]

Is diabetes not a dis-ease?

[Unicorn]

Yes, but we are not having a discussion on where 'your' diabetes has its root cause.

[KateC]

I didn't mention your diabetes or a gentic link.

I said I believe that 'most' dis-ease has its roots in emotional, mental and spiritual unrest.

So some ailments should be suitable for homeopathic/essence treatment and therefore testing?

[Unicorn]

My post: What has a properly conducted study, conducted by those that aren't involved in homeopathy have anything to do with that study being put on the pro-homeopathy site?????

IJF post: Nope. Who performs the study and how it is performed are critical in the validity of the data produced and how that data is interpreted.

You have taken what i said out of context!

[kazschow]

Yes, but we are not having a discussion on where 'your' diabetes has its root cause.

So is it selective the CURE for dis-ease then? If there's an essence that can stop me having to live with a serious lifelong degenerative illness I most definitely want to know about it!!!

[Unicorn]

So some ailments should be suitable for homeopathic/essence treatment and therefore testing?

I am saying that treating dis-ease isn't as clear cut as treating a set of symptoms. There is more to it, much more.

That's the difference between treating the body and the whole person.

[Unicorn]

So is it selective the CURE for dis-ease then? If there's an essence that can stop me having to live with a serious lifelong degenerative illness I most definitely want to know about it!!!

Of course it's not selective, but first we would have to understand if your diabetes was emotionally based, genetic and if so, how we could go about helping it depending on where the issue lies.

[kazschow]

So it is curable then? Cause I tell you it freaks the bejeezus out of me the thought of going down the same route as my dad loosing parts of his feet, developing a triple AAA and dying miserably in hospital!!!!

[Unicorn]

So it is curable then? Cause I tell you it freaks the bejeezus out of me the thought of going down the same route as my dad loosing parts of his feet, developing a triple AAA and dying miserably in hospital!!!!

I believe that many dis-eases are curable. More than we are led to believe. But I can't state that your diabetes is curable.

[kazschow]

So you can't sort it with an essence then? My vision is already starting to deteriourate, and I'd sell my soul to stop it tbh!!!

[bluninja]

So it is curable then? Cause I tell you it freaks the bejeezus out of me the thought of going down the same route as my dad loosing parts of his feet, developing a triple AAA and dying miserably in hospital!!!!

Oi stop that! How will I know now that if I develop diabetes whether the cause will be genetic (mum and her sister with it) or emotional from reading your post? :)

[KateC]

OK.

So if someone has, say, diabetes due to "issues" with their whole self, and your essences can cure those issues, then the symptom (diabetes) should go away, right?

[Unicorn]

So you can't sort it with an essence then? My vision is already starting to deteriourate, and I'd sell my soul to stop it tbh!!!

You can't heal medical conditions that have taken such a hold with just one essence. Even mental conditions require some work and emotional conditions too!

[Unicorn]

OK.

So if someone has, say, diabetes due to "issues" with their whole self, and your essences can cure those issues, then the symptom (diabetes) should go away, right?

Many times this is exactly what happens.

[KateC]

Many times this is exactly what happens.

Then that should be perfectly testable.

[kazschow]

Sorry Bluey, if you're sugar goes through the roof today, I take full responsibilty LOL

Unicorn, surely if a variety of essences work on the whole person a variety of essences will cure me?

[Unicorn]

Then that should be perfectly testable.

Yes, testable if a scientist were to spend x amount of time with a therapist and a client. You can't just do one test!

[Unicorn]

Sorry Bluey, if you're sugar goes through the roof today, I take full responsibilty LOL

Unicorn, surely if a variety of essences work on the whole person a variety of essences will cure me?

The question is: Do you believe you can be cured of your diabetes or do you think it is something you have to live with for the rest of your life?

[kazschow]

I don't really see what I think has to do with it, if essences can cure my layers of Dis-ease they can do it.... I'll pay you to cure me Unicorn....

[Unicorn]

Your belief about something is the difference between accepting the diagnosis, or going out and perhaps exploring other avenues.

I always start from a place of "I can heal this" pertaining to my own health.

[KateC]

Yes, testable if a scientist were to spend x amount of time with a therapist and a client. You can't just do one test!

Well it would be a start though wouldn't it?

Curing something as concrete as diabetes would be pretty undeniably proof of the powers of essences.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but once you're diabetic you never stop being diabetic, do you? So if you took, say, Kaz, who has medical evidence to show that she HAS diabetes, and treated her for a year (or however long) and she was cured, then scientists would have to take notice... that would certainly count as proof.

[kazschow]

I am very much an explore alternatives type person Unicorn, hense why I'm on such a strick food intake, and resisted the inuslin injections specialist have tried to put me on... I am almost completely insulin resistant btw...

I could live a much easier life going down a drug based route... but as I say, I will pay you to cure me if you believe you can.

[bluninja]

It's interesting Unicorn that you ask if KC 'believes' that she can be cured. Either your essences work or they don't.

[Unicorn]

Well it would be a start though wouldn't it?

Curing something as concrete as diabetes would be pretty undeniably proof of the powers of essences.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but once you're diabetic you never stop being diabetic, do you? So if you took, say, Kaz, who has medical evidence to show that she HAS diabetes, and treated her for a year (or however long) and she was cured, then scientists would have to take notice... that would certainly count as proof.

I agree it would be a start. But it isn't a quick process, although some people heal quicker than others.

Would science take notice though? I'm sure they could attribute it to coincidence etc.

I once helped a young lady that had rheumatoid arthritis (no known cure). We used essences for 10 months, quite a few different ones and the last tests conducted showed her rheuamatoid arthritis was completely gone. I like to think the essences helped do something, but I'm sure many would put it down to coincidence etc

[Unicorn]

It's interesting Unicorn that you ask if KC 'believes' that she can be cured. Either your essences work or they don't.

Essences do work, but the individual plays a crucial role in their own healing. All healing is self healing. If you begin from a place of "I will never be cured". What exactly do you think will happen?

[kazschow]

I don't care how long it takes Unicorn, I'm on no other mediction other than vits and minerals, I could diary all my food intake etc, I both blood and urine test daily... I don't see how any scientist could say it was coincindence if you cured my diabetes...

[bluninja]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but once you're diabetic you never stop being diabetic, do you?

If you have a pancreas transplant it will 'fix' it for as long as the organ remains functioning in your body.

[kazschow]

You can also get islet transplants... it's not longterm, a bit experimantal but works...

[KateC]

Essences do work, but the individual plays a crucial role in their own healing. All healing is self healing. If you begin from a place of "I will never be cured". What exactly do you think will happen?

Well, if the illness IS actually curable, and you are given something that is proven to work, then it is more likely than not that whether or not you believe you will be cured, you WILL be.

Not always - nothing is 100% effective 100% of the time - but if something works, then it tends to work.

Otherwise, how come people with a completely positive "I will beat this" attitude who have been diagnosed with terminal cancer still die?

[bluninja]

I don't care how long it takes Unicorn, I'm on no other mediction other than vits and minerals, I could diary all my food intake etc, I both blood and urine test daily... I don't see how any scientist could say it was coincindence if you cured my diabetes...

Even if they said it wasn't due to Unicorn's intervention there would be evidence that some mechanism had caused the diabetes to be cured. And that would be worthy of further investigation. OF course if someone was cured; even without exhaustive double blind tests some would come forward to try.....and if they were cured...then a body of evidence would be created.

[KateC]

I agree it would be a start. But it isn't a quick process, although some people heal quicker than others.

Would science take notice though? I'm sure they could attribute it to coincidence etc.

I once helped a young lady that had rheumatoid arthritis (no known cure). We used essences for 10 months, quite a few different ones and the last tests conducted showed her rheuamatoid arthritis was completely gone. I like to think the essences helped do something, but I'm sure many would put it down to coincidence etc

Well, there IS such a thing as coincidence and that is why tests have to be repeatable, so that coincidence/regression to the mean etc can be ruled out.

But I'm sure there are enough people with illnesses that an essence practitioner would consider curable for a proper study to be done, and repeated etc...

[kazschow]

Absolutely Bluey..... I want to be able to eat a mars bar again LOL My diabetes won't reverse itself... however if a variety of essences cure it, how could anyone debate that!!!

[Unicorn]

Well, if the illness IS actually curable, and you are given something that is proven to work, then it is more likely than not that whether or not you believe you will be cured, you WILL be.

Not always - nothing is 100% effective 100% of the time - but if something works, then it tends to work.

Otherwise, how come people with a completely positive "I will beat this" attitude who have been diagnosed with terminal cancer still die?

But we know that our thoughts about ourselves have a huge impact on our lives. If one is plagued by mental negativity, think how that affects their life? I would even suggest that it could be the difference between healing and not healing.

So I believe our thoughts are crucial to our healing journey. Forget about drugs for a minute, we are extremely powerful beings; and we create our reality every minute of every day.

As for people still dying; to answer that I would have to give you a metaphysical answer.

[Unicorn]

Well, there IS such a thing as coincidence and that is why tests have to be repeatable, so that coincidence/regression to the mean etc can be ruled out.

But I'm sure there are enough people with illnesses that an essence practitioner would consider curable for a proper study to be done, and repeated etc...

The point is that the 'essences' that may have helped Kazschow, aren't necessarily the essences that would help Joe Bloggs. See the difficulty?

[kazschow]

What difference does that make, by your own admission every patient is an individual, and treated as a whole, so obvioulsy the mix would differ. However, the essences would have healed ME as a whole, which would be proof in itself that essences work...

As I said before I will pay you to cure me Unicorn.... Even if I have to take loans to do it!

[kazschow]

The bottom line Unicorn is, do you BELIEVE you can cure me? And if so will you?

[KateC]

But we know that our thoughts about ourselves have a huge impact on our lives. If one is plagued by mental negativity, think how that affects their life? I would even suggest that it could be the difference between healing and not healing.

So I belive our thoughts are crucial to our healing journey. Forget about drugs for a minute, we are extremely powerful beings; and we create our reality every minute of every day.

As for people still dying; to answer that I would have to give you a metaphysical answer.

So if someone doesn't get better, it's their own attitude which is to blame - not the fact that essences/homeopathy don't work...

But someone treated with mainstream medicine will still be more likely to get better, whether or not they believe in the cure.

What you are talking about, then, is placebo. The main reason that homeopathy etc sometimes seems to work.....

[Unicorn]

Just pointing out that testing something where the blends are different is so much harder than a blanket test. You can't replicate it because the person is unique and presenting a unique set of issues.

[IJF]

You have taken what i said out of context!

How so. I posted your post in it's entirety.

[Mynona.]

I believe that many dis-eases are curable. More than we are led to believe. But I can't state that your diabetes is curable.

and here comes the problem of where anecdotal evidence is problematical.

My hubby was diagnosed with Type 2 diabetes last December (blood levels through the roof). Since then, he has lost 3 1/2 stone in weight and his bloods are back in the 'normal' range. Had he taken essences at the start and still lost the weight, a great truimph would be claimed.

He still isn't 'cured' and never will be. A day's relaxation on diet and the bloods show signs that he can't be complacent on the carbs front.

I suspect that Kaz has Type 1 diabetes and, Unicorn, you are on very sticky ground if you even start to suggest that this is curable. Even Type 2s can never be described as 'cured' because any weight increase and it's back with a vengeance.

It's claims on the curability of such conditions through complimentary means that put the whole issue in the realms of hazardous!

[KateC]

The point is that the 'essences' that may have helped Kazschow, aren't necessarily the essences that would help Joe Bloggs. See the difficulty?

Not really.

Nobody is saying that exactly the same essence has to cure everyone. Even with conventional drugs, various combinations have to be worked out for different people.

A friend of mine who is Bi-Polar frequently has to have her medication dickered about with and tailored to her as an individual.

The point is, if 1000 people with widely regarded "incurable" illnesses are given essences - different essences, different combinations/strengths or whatever but still essences - and a significant proportion are cured, that begins to count as proper proof.

[Unicorn]

So if someone doesn't get better, it's their own attitude which is to blame - not the fact that essences/homeopathy don't work...

But someone treated with mainstream medicine will still be more likely to get better, whether or not they believe in the cure.

What you are talking about, then, is placebo. The main reason that homeopathy etc sometimes seems to work.....

No, I am saying we shouldn't underestimate the power of our thinking but thinking alone isn't going to cure everything.

I have done some deep healing on myself, healed negative thought patterns, etc, etc, when someone is genuinely hurting they just can't snap out of it. I used essences in effect to fill in the gaps, so when I was plagued by a negative emotion, I used the specific essence to get rid of that negative emotion and replace it with the opposite quality. I couldn't have done that alone.

We all know how difficult it can be to change a negative emotion, espeically if it is very deeply ingrained.

[Unicorn]

The point is, if 1000 people with widely regarded "incurable" illnesses are given essences - different essences, different combinations/strengths or whatever but still essences - and a significant proportion are cured, that begins to count as proper proof.

We need to start approaching healers then. The energy healer I visit has helped many, many people to heal from all sorts of conditions. She is an amazing lady and knows a thing or two about healing. Why don't scientists spend some time with these people???

[KateC]

No, I am saying we shouldn't underestimate the power of our thinking but thinking alone isn't going to cure everything.

I have done some deep healing on myself, healed negative thought patterns, etc, etc, when someone is genuinely hurting they just can't snap out of it. I used essences in effect to fill in the gaps, so when I was plagued by a negative emotion, I used the specific essence to get rid of that negative emotion and replace it with the opposite quality. I couldn't have done that alone.

We all know how difficult it can be to change a negative emotion, espeically if it is very deeply ingrained.

But you have nothing to compare that to.

People often overcome negative thought patterns with no treatment other than positive thinking.

[Mynona.]

The point is that the 'essences' that may have helped Kazschow, aren't necessarily the essences that would help Joe Bloggs. See the difficulty?

Can I ask, Unicorn, if essences are unique to the individual, why we see them sold over the counter without any consultation? I can pop into Boots tomorrow and pick up a full range of Bach remedies and a book that tells me what they do, but how does that work if each remedy needs to be unique to the individual for it to be effective.

[kazschow]

No I am type 2 also Mynona, but I am much more insulin resistant than most diabetics.... My bloods even now have not come back to a completely "normal" range, but are no longer at 27!!!

I've just been apraised for a drugs trial, as I don't want to go onto 4 injections a day, which is what's being recomended at the mo :(

[KateC]

We need to start approaching healers then. The energy healer I visit has helped many, many people to heal from all sorts of conditions. She is an amazing lady and knows a thing or two about healing. Why don't scientists spend some time with these people???

Maybe because these people often resist proper testing, knowing they will fail.

[Unicorn]

People often overcome negative thought patterns with no treatment other than positive thinking.

That would be why we have so many mental health issues in the world! If it were that easy, we would all be doing it.

I use the healing energies of nature to help with the process. One minute the negative emotion is there, some weeks later, it is gone.

[Unicorn]

Can I ask, Unicorn, if essences are unique to the individual, why we see them sold over the counter without any consultation? I can pop into Boots tomorrow and pick up a full range of Bach remedies and a book that tells me what they do, but how does that work if each remedy needs to be unique to the individual for it to be effective.

It depends on what you are dealing with. If you lack confidence for example you can take the confidence essence, but if the confidence issues are deeper ie. a parent ridiculed you every day and said you would amount to nothing; there may be a deeper level to address.

Sometimes when the essence has no effect it could well be because there is still trauma present at some level.

[kazschow]

We diverse... do you want to cure me?

[KateC]

That would be why we have so many mental health issues in the world! If it were that easy, we would all be doing it.

I use the healing energies of nature to help with the process. One minute the negative emotion is there, some weeks later, it is gone.

But it might have gone anyway.

Like warts, if you like. Warts tend to go away anyway, but there are endless old wives tales about how to get rid of them.

People used to believe that rubbing a dead toad on them made them go away because someone would rub their dead toad on their wart and hey presto! Some weeks later, it would be gone!

Or are you suggesting that dead toads DO get rid of warts?

Same principle.

[Unicorn]

Maybe because these people often resist proper testing, knowing they will fail.

I don't think they would resist. She teaches me lots of things and is very open about what she does.

[Unicorn]

But it might have gone anyway.

Like warts, if you like. Warts tend to go away anyway, but there are endless old wives tales about how to get rid of them.

People used to believe that rubbing a dead toad on them made them go away because someone would rub their dead toad on their wart and hey presto! Some weeks later, it would be gone!

Or are you suggesting that dead toads DO get rid of warts?

Same principle.

Do you know what it is like to spend six years of your life in deep emotional pain? How long do you wait and how long do you think we should suffer for????

[Unicorn]

Some people spend 14 years seeing counsellors; clearly what are they waiting for? A miraculous recovery. Why if things just tend to go away do we have people spending 14 years in counselling?????

[kazschow]

I'm suffering from emotional trauma waiting to hear if you're going to help me UNicorn....

[Mynona.]

No I am type 2 also Mynona, but I am much more insulin resistant than most diabetics.... My bloods even now have not come back to a completely "normal" range, but are no longer at 27!!!

I've just been apraised for a drugs trial, as I don't want to go onto 4 injections a day, which is what's being recomended at the mo :(

Blimey, Kaz, that is through the roof! Very fortunately, hubby has never had to test whether or not he is insulin resistant. A low carb diet alone is controlling at the moment now the weight is in check, but if he doesn't eat every four hours, he becomes light-headed and dizzy. The diet is boring (I know because I've done it with him as I needed to shed some weight) but a life-saver. If you decide to go ahead with the trials, I wish you all the luck in the world and would appreciate your feedback on the outcome if you don't mind?

Sorry to take the thread slightly 'off-topic'.

[Unicorn]

I'm suffering from emotional trauma waiting to hear if you're going to help me UNicorn....

Kazschow, Given our past on this forum it would not be in our best interests to work together.

[Snowmantra]

Kazschow, Given our past on this forum it would not be in our best interests to work together.


Genuine question... :)

Why do you have to have a good relationship with someone to make them better or be able to help them?

[kazschow]

No problem at all Mynona, I'll tell you how I get on... I'm on a low carb, low GI diet, which has brought my levels down a good bit, but I can't touch anything with white flour, white rice, pasta, potaoes, fruits, sugar, fruit juices, dairy to name but a few lol

If I go to long I hypo... I have colapsed in tescos amongst other places... at that point I need to eat a pure carb or sugar of some sort, Diabetes is a real balancing act... I have an eye prob if I eat carbs too, I get an osmosis type thing, my vision goes as the lens takes up to much fluid, I've also in my first few month had foot ulcers, oh the joys!!!!

I do drink a glass of chillian carminiera wine a day, which is diabetic friendly, my one treat a day!!!

I hope you're OH continues to keep it under control ;)

[kazschow]

I really don;t see what difference our past makes.. if you can sort me out wyh would you as a caring professional not want to do that?

[Unicorn]

Genuine question... :)

Why do you have to have a good relationship with someone to make them better or be able to help them?

Because I work better if the people I am helping are on my side and are not intent on making out that the essences don't work. Which Kazschow has done so in the past and the exchanges we have sometimes had don't make for a genuine working relationship.

I will however, do some research on diabetes and ask some questions and even do some dowsing.

[Unicorn]

I really don;t see what difference our past makes.. if you can sort me out wyh would you as a caring professional not want to do that?

I can't promise to sort you out though.

[kazschow]

Sounds good to me UNicorn;)

[Snowmantra]

Because I work better if the people I am helping are on my side and are not intent on making out that the essences don't work. Which Kazschow has done so in the past and the exchanges we have sometimes had don't make for a genuine working relationship.

I will however, do some research on diabetes and ask some questions and even do some dowsing.

I'm sorry I don't really understand how your healing works tbh. So have nothing to add for or against. :)

I would assume (hope) that conventional medicine doesn't cherry pick based on likes and dislikes. Would that not be classed as unethical? Or is belief of the individual a large part of the healing?

[Mynona.]

No problem at all Mynona, I'll tell you how I get on... I'm on a low carb, low GI diet, which has brought my levels down a good bit, but I can't touch anything with white flour, white rice, pasta, potaoes, fruits, sugar, fruit juices, dairy to name but a few lol

If I go to long I hypo... I have colapsed in tescos amongst other places... at that point I need to eat a pure carb or sugar of some sort, Diabetes is a real balancing act... I have an eye prob if I eat carbs too, I get an osmosis type thing, my vision goes as the lens takes up to much fluid, I've also in my first few month had foot ulcers, oh the joys!!!!

I do drink a glass of chillian carminiera wine a day, which is diabetic friendly, my one treat a day!!!

I hope you're OH continues to keep it under control ;)

Thanks Kaz. The hypos are the cause of the dizzyness etc which is why the four hourly eating regime. So far, although coming close, he's avoided collapse. He's lucky, compared to you. He can eat some potato (100 grms), but his main diet is veg and chicken or turkey. Salads have a good effect for some reason so it's good he likes salad :). His main gripe is that he loves bread and has to strictly limit it. There's also a balancing act between diet and exercise so quite a bit of juggling to keep things on an even keel.

I'm very interested in the trial results for obvious reasons.

Thank you for the good wishes and they are returned in bucketloads. It's a terrible condition which often seems like a swinging guillotine overhead at times :(

[Snowmantra]

My Mum's OH is on 4 injections a day and finds it much better than the two, seems to be less fluctuations.He used to have quite a few hypos, and oddly I always knew he was going to have one before he did. Although he is a reluctant diabetic, so sometimes still has naughty things. Cannae be easy though.




Thanks Kaz. The hypos are the cause of the dizzyness etc which is why the four hourly eating regime. So far, although coming close, he's avoided collapse. He's lucky, compared to you. He can eat some potato (100 grms), but his main diet is veg and chicken or turkey. Salads have a good effect for some reason so it's good he likes salad :). His main gripe is that he loves bread and has to strictly limit it. There's also a balancing act between diet and exercise so quite a bit of juggling to keep things on an even keel.

I'm very interested in the trial results for obvious reasons.

Thank you for the good wishes and they are returned in bucketloads. It's a terrible condition which often seems like a swinging guillotine overhead at times :(

[kazschow]

burgen linseed and soya is low GI bread :) I can eat it fine Mynona.

[kazschow]

My Mum's OH is on 4 injections a day and finds it much better than the two, seems to be less fluctuations.He used to have quite a few hypos, and oddly I always knew he was going to have one before he did. Although he is a reluctant diabetic, so sometimes still has naughty things. Cannae be easy though.

It's impossible not to give in now and again, you wouldn't be human if you didn't :)

[bluninja]

My Mum's OH is on 4 injections a day and finds it much better than the two, seems to be less fluctuations.He used to have quite a few hypos, and oddly I always knew he was going to have one before he did. Although he is a reluctant diabetic, so sometimes still has naughty things. Cannae be easy though.

We had a bloke at work who was naughty, and knew when he was just about to go. As duty first aider I'd get a phone call and the other end would be dead...lucky he managed to speed dial or he might have been.

[Unicorn]

I'm sorry I don't really understand how your healing works tbh. So have nothing to add for or against. :)

I would assume (hope) that conventional medicine doesn't cherry pick based on likes and dislikes. Would that not be classed as unethical? Or is belief of the individual a large part of the healing?

I can cherry pick whilst on here because my normal channels of working are that the individual contacts me in the first instance, there have been no negative exchanges and on that basis there is a clean slate. Last time I tried helping someone on here, they used it against me, so I won't be getting into that one again!:biggrin:

[Unicorn]

This is odd though. Just been to the corner shop and had a chat with the owner. The conversation went something like this:

How are you?
Unicorn: Fine thanks and you?
I'm a bit cold
Unicorn: You need someone to make you a nice hot cup of tea
Yes, although it could also be my diabetes .......................

How very spooky is that!

[Terrier]

homeopathy has no effect beyond the placebo.

Is that really so bad?

Bearing in mind this part of Unicorn's website:
Noah's Ark Essences - Disclaimer (http://www.noahsarkessences.com/page_1242525021982.html)

She's clearly not advocating the use of her essences to *replace* conventional veterinary care. Nobody has disputed that there are no side-effects. Which leads me to ask, where's the harm?

If she's selling a placebo that gives a person comfort and hope, but doing them *no* harm - what's the problem?

[kazschow]

There's no problem at all, unless the purchaser thinks this is something that is going to help themselves or their pet, and it subsequently fails...

[Unicorn]

But there is always that possiblity that it may fail. Nothing can ever be 100% certain.

[BJ]

Is that really so bad?

Bearing in mind this part of Unicorn's website:
Noah's Ark Essences - Disclaimer (http://www.noahsarkessences.com/page_1242525021982.html)

She's clearly not advocating the use of her essences to *replace* conventional veterinary care. Nobody has disputed that there are no side-effects. Which leads me to ask, where's the harm?

If she's selling a placebo that gives a person comfort and hope, but doing them *no* harm - what's the problem?

My new best friend Oliver Wendell Holmes Sr put it like this:

Those kind friends who suggest to a person suffering from a tedious complaint that he "had better try Homoeopathy," are apt to enforce their suggestion by adding, that "at any rate it can do no harm". This may or may not be true as regards the individual. But it always does very great harm to the community to encourage ignorance, error, or deception, in a profession which deals with the life and health of our fellow-creatures.

[kazschow]

But there is always that possiblity that it may fail. Nothing can ever be 100% certain.

Absolutely, but Terriers is advocating a placeobo rate of 20% being acceptable.... WIMHO it isn't. If someone does a job, any job, and finds 20% an effective outcome for that job, that's a very poor standard to bee setting themselves!

[Unicorn]

Those kind friends who suggest to a person suffering from a tedious complaint that he "had better try Homoeopathy," are apt to enforce their suggestion by adding, that "at any rate it can do no harm". This may or may not be true as regards the individual. But it always does very great harm to the community to encourage ignorance, error, or deception, in a profession which deals with the life and health of our fellow-creatures

That also applies to the medical profession then who base their medicine on a flawed understanding of who we are.

[BJ]

That also applies to the medical profession then who base their medicine on a flawed understanding of who we are.

Even if what you say about medicine were true, it would not make what you say about homeopathy correct.

[smokeybear]

Nothing can be 100% certain?

Can these words really be coming from Unicorn; she who has stated on several occasions that EVERYTHING can be cured?!

the Nobel prize is still waiting Unicorn!

[Unicorn]

Nothing can be 100% certain?

Can these words really be coming from Unicorn; she who has stated on several occasions that EVERYTHING can be cured?!

the Nobel prize is still waiting Unicorn!

Twisting everything as is your normal little habit. I believe somewhere I even said you can't grow back an arm that has been amputated, so clearly not everything can be cured.

Get your facts correct; that would help.

[Unicorn]

Even if what you say about medicine were true, it would not make what you say about homeopathy correct.

But homeopathy doesn't base its medicine on a flawed concept of who we are. It encompasses the correct concept.

Conventional medicine still does not.

[kazschow]

What is the correct concept of who we are?

[BJ]

But homeopathy doesn't base its medicine on a flawed concept of who we are. It encompasses the correct concept.

Conventional medicine still does not.

It's a real bummer then that medicine consistently has better recovery rates for more conditions than homeopathy. All those people getting better under false pretences.

[KateC]

Homeopathy bases its medicine on HUGELY flawed thinking!

Water having "memory" - unproven and totally implausible.
The more dilute something is, the more powerful it is - huh?? :rofl:

The more you take it apart and analyse it, the weaker the concept becomes. It is supposed to be the opposite....

[Unicorn]

What is the correct concept of who we are?


We are not our bodies.

[Unicorn]

It's a real bummer then that medicine consistently has better recovery rates for more conditions than homeopathy. All those people getting better under false pretences.

Yes, it would be good if we had 200 years worth of data, but we haven't.

[kazschow]

I don;t get what you mean Unicorn, if we're not our bodies what are we?

[KateC]

Yes, it would be good if we had 200 years worth of data, but we haven't.

You'd think by now there'd be SOME sort of data though....

[Unicorn]

Water having "memory" - unproven and totally implausible.

Not implausible at all. Everything is 'energy'. Water is energy; and everything has a vibration. Put one vibration into another vibration and you have a 'new' vibration.

[Unicorn]

I don;t get what you mean Unicorn, if we're not our bodies what are we?

How long have we got? We have discussed this before in other posts. We are not slabs of meat, you can't cure slabs of meat because we are more than that. Wouldn't you agree that you are more than just your body?

[Unicorn]

You'd think by now there'd be SOME sort of data though....

For there to be data there needs to be a desire to explore the subject matter. If people spent less time arguing about it and more time doing, we would have more valuable information to base our studies on.

[BJ]

Yes, it would be good if we had 200 years worth of data, but we haven't.

Medicine has eradicated smallpox from the planet (apart from samples kept for laboratory and terrorist use).
How many diseases has homeopathy eradicated?

[kazschow]

How long have we got? We have discussed this before in other posts. We are not slabs of meat, you can't cure slabs of meat because we are more than that. Wouldn't you agree that you are more than just your body?

YOu may have discussed this I haven't, I've got no idea what you mean, you talk in riddles at times Unicorn!

[KateC]

Not implausible at all. Everything is 'energy'. Water is energy; and everything has a vibration. Put one vibration into another vibration and you have a 'new' vibration.


Well that's arguable but let's imagine for a moment that that is true.

How do you explain the fact that every drop of water on the planet has at some point been through human/animal digestive systems and come into contact with all manner of nasties? Yet it doesn't "remember" that - just the things the homeopath claims it remembers...

[KateC]

For there to be data there needs to be a desire to explore the subject matter. If people spent less time arguing about it and more time doing, we would have more valuable information to base our studies on.

But there HAS been plenty of study and testing. There IS the desire to explore it. But the study and testing always comes up zilch...

[BJ]

Well that's arguable but let's imagine for a moment that that is true.

How do you explain the fact that every drop of water on the planet has at some point been through human/animal digestive systems and come into contact with all manner of nasties? Yet it doesn't "remember" that - just the things the homeopath claims it remembers...

It's all down to the sucussion I think.

[KateC]

It's all down to the sucussion I think.

Aaah but the more it is diluted, the more potent it is... so a drop of water that was in contact with an onion 250 years ago should, by a homeopath's logic, be a strong antidote against, say, hayfever (which also causes watering eyes)... so tapwater should do the trick just as "effectively" as anything a homeopath could prescribe....

[Unicorn]

Well that's arguable but let's imagine for a moment that that is true.

How do you explain the fact that every drop of water on the planet has at some point been through human/animal digestive systems and come into contact with all manner of nasties? Yet it doesn't "remember" that - just the things the homeopath claims it remembers...

Well water does hold onto some stuff like hormones etc

The difference is when we make our essences we set our intent. I don't just put a bowl of water near a tree. I co-create the essence with nature. Nature then responds.

The universe is alive and can communicate with us.

[Unicorn]

But there HAS been plenty of study and testing. There IS the desire to explore it. But the study and testing always comes up zilch...

That isn't necessarily true.

Clearly homeopaths are getting good results otherwise they would not be doing that job.

I have already suggested that the testing needs to be changed and needs to be different.

[bluninja]

Since matter is just extremely condensed energy then we are just dense energy beings....some of us are denser than others

[BJ]

Aaah but the more it is diluted, the more potent it is... so a drop of water that was in contact with an onion 250 years ago should, by a homeopath's logic, be a strong antidote against, say, hayfever (which also causes watering eyes)... so tapwater should do the trick just as "effectively" as anything a homeopath could prescribe....

Or as Wendell Holmes put it....

I have just made a calculation which shows that this single drop of TIncture of Camomile, given in the quantity ordered by Jahr's Manual, would have supplied every individual of the whole human family, past and present, with more than five billion doses each...

[KateC]

Well water does hold onto some stuff like hormones etc

The difference is when we make our essences we set our intent. I don't just put a bowl of water near a tree. I co-create the essence with nature. Nature then responds.

The universe is alive and can communicate with us.

But again, you are making statements that don't necessarily have any basis in fact.

If I make a pie for my OH, with the intent of pleasing him and mistakenly put rat poison in it, then however good my intentions he'll end up sick or dead.

Similarly, however much I wish someone ill, a cup of tea isn't likely to do them any harm.

You can't explain unproven theories by coming up with even more unproven theories...

[KateC]

Well water does hold onto some stuff like hormones etc

The difference is when we make our essences we set our intent. I don't just put a bowl of water near a tree. I co-create the essence with nature. Nature then responds.

The universe is alive and can communicate with us.


So, since tapwater ALREADY holds the vibrations of EVERYTHING it has ever been in contact with, why bother with all the "one drop of such and such, shaken and diluted 1,000 times" thing at all?

Why not just let the water know what you want it to do?

[smokeybear]

The Beach Boys have the best version of Good Vibrations

[Ryan]

I'd bloody LOVE to be able to sell intent. LOVE it.

I'm not kidding.

My intentions are seriously, seriously commercially attractive.

It is my intent that there be no cancer, AIDS or The Clap - can I sell this?

Ryan's Intent in a Box ®
If you need it, I want you to have it.

[Patience]

The Beach Boys have the best version of Good Vibrations
I must have picked up on your vibes! :rofl:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TCeD_6Y3GQc

[Mynona.]

I have already suggested that the testing needs to be changed and needs to be different.

What test design would you like to see, Unicorn?

[Unicorn]

But again, you are making statements that don't necessarily have any basis in fact.

If I make a pie for my OH, with the intent of pleasing him and mistakenly put rat poison in it, then however good my intentions he'll end up sick or dead.

Similarly, however much I wish someone ill, a cup of tea isn't likely to do them any harm.

You can't explain unproven theories by coming up with even more unproven theories...

I am aware that I sometimes make statements that don't have any basis in fact.

The metaphysical properties of a flower or a tree cannot be obtained by scientific means. That information is held in the field of consciousness; so the information has to be got at using other senses. Here lies the problem.

[Unicorn]

So, since tapwater ALREADY holds the vibrations of EVERYTHING it has ever been in contact with, why bother with all the "one drop of such and such, shaken and diluted 1,000 times" thing at all?

Why not just let the water know what you want it to do?

Clearly intent is key otherwise as we all drink water every day, we would all be very healthy. Clearly something else is taking place!

[kimomeara]

What do you mean Unicorn? Do you mean what we intend the water to do or what the water intends to do?

[Unicorn]

Nature intends. So the flower intends for its vibration to be infused into the water. It is a co-creative partnership.

[IJF]

Well water does hold onto some stuff like hormones etc

The difference is when we make our essences we set our intent. I don't just put a bowl of water near a tree. I co-create the essence with nature. Nature then responds.

The universe is alive and can communicate with us.

So the important bit is your intent for the essence?

Does it matter where the water has been for the last 1000 years? Does it matter what it has touched in the past? Does it matter what you put into it?

[IJF]

That isn't necessarily true.

Clearly homeopaths are getting good results otherwise they would not be doing that job.

I have already suggested that the testing needs to be changed and needs to be different.

Flawed argument, unless the result is making money.

[Unicorn]

So the important bit is your intent for the essence?

Does it matter where the water has been for the last 1000 years? Does it matter what it has touched in the past? Does it matter what you put into it?

Yes, intent is key in healing and in making essences. The water is just the medium that holds the vibration.

One thing about water, I would never make an essence with water out of a tap, it is too contaminated. We use spring water, water from Chalice Well Garden. Because the vibration of the flower/tree/stone/crystal is so pure, we use the purest water we can find.

[Ryan]

Nature intends. So the flower intends for its vibration to be infused into the water. It is a co-creative partnership.

Does nature also intend to kill?

Because it does. Often.

So how do you quantify nature's intent?

[Unicorn]

Natures intent to kill isn't relevant when making essences. My intent is to obtain a pure vibration so that it may be used to help people to heal.

[KateC]

Yes, intent is key in healing and in making essences. The water is just the medium that holds the vibration.

One thing about water, I would never make an essence with water out of a tap, it is too contaminated. We use spring water, water from Chalice Well Garden. Because the vibration of the flower/tree/stone/crystal is so pure, we use the purest water we can find.

Contaminated by what?

And if water has memory, how do you DEcontaminate it? Surely it will remember all the stuff it has had in it regardless of filtration etc?

How do you make water forget?

[IJF]

Yes, intent is key in healing and in making essences. The water is just the medium that holds the vibration.

So far in this topic we have had belief and intent mentioned. I'm guessing a bit of hope and a bit of faith would be useful too....

One thing about water, I would never make an essence with water out of a tap, it is too contaminated. We use spring water, water from Chalice Well Garden. Because the vibration of the flower/tree/stone/crystal is so pure, we use the purest water we can find.

Aah, the old spring water deal. You do realise that that water will still basically have many of the same components and contaminants as tap water and it comes from the same cycle (evaporation, condensation,/precipitation). Therefore it will still have been through us many times etc. etc.

[Unicorn]

hormones, flouride, traces of metals etc etc

Some sources aren't contaminated though.

[IJF]

Natures intent to kill isn't relevant when making essences. My intent is to obtain a pure vibration so that it may be used to help people to heal.

So intent is critical, unless it is natures intent to kill?

[Unicorn]

With healing intent is key.

[IJF]

hormones, flouride, traces of metals etc etc

Some sources aren't contaminated though.

How? Do they not get the same rain that the rest of the planet gets?

[Unicorn]

And?? Many of these waters have been through years of filtration.

Natural springs don't have crap thrown in them. There are no oil spills etc. There are levels of contamination just as in the soil. Some have more nutrients than others.

[IJF]

And?? Many of these waters have been through years of filtration.

Natural springs don't have crap thrown in them. There are no oil spills etc. There are levels of contamination just as in the soil. Some have more nutrients than others.

Which removes all hormones, flouride and traces of metal? :huh:

[Unicorn]

There is quality of water just like there is quality of soil. We aim to use the water that is least contaminated. Challice Well is a very sprititual place, the energies there are conducive to healing. So, better to get my water from this natural healing place than to take it from the tap.

[pod]

Just out of interest I've looked up Chalice Well and read that analysis has found the water to be rich in iron with a detectable magnetic charge and that it is slightly radioactive.

Can't say I understand any of this memory stuff but Unicorn, wouldn't it be better to start out with the purest form of water - distilled?

[Unicorn]

The water in Chalice Well is conducive to healing and has very special properties. Many essences are made using it. It is highly pure and people go there specially to drink the waters and infuse themselves in the energy of the place. A beautfiul experience if you ever visit, but be prepared the energies are very strong.

[IJF]

The water in Chalice Well is conducive to healing and has very special properties. Many essences are made using it. It is highly pure and people go there specially to drink the waters and infuse themselves in the energy of the place. A beautfiul experience if you ever visit, but be prepared the energies are very strong.

'Beware the force....strong it is'. :biggrin:

[Patience]

The water in Chalice Well is conducive to healing and has very special properties. Many essences are made using it. It is highly pure
Not as pure as distilled water.

[BJ]

The water in Chalice Well is conducive to healing and has very special properties. Many essences are made using it. It is highly pure and people go there specially to drink the waters and infuse themselves in the energy of the place. A beautfiul experience if you ever visit, but be prepared the energies are very strong.

If understand your process correctly, once you have selected your pure water and the cocreated the essence, you then have to add an unspecified amount of alcohol or glycerine. Isn't that a bit of a shame?

I checked the ingredients listed on a bottle of Rescue Remedy in our local chemist once, and brandy (aka grape alcohol) was listed before water, so that means RR is more than 50% brandy. Are the proportions similar in your essences?

[Unicorn]

Not as pure as distilled water.

In your opinion. What Chalice Well water has that distilled water doesn't have is spiritual energies.

[Unicorn]

If understand your process correctly, once you have selected your pure water and the cocreated the essence, you then have to add an unspecified amount of alcohol or glycerine. Isn't that a bit of a shame?

I checked the ingredients listed on a bottle of Rescue Remedy in our local chemist once, and brandy (aka grape alcohol) was listed before water, so that means RR is more than 50% brandy. Are the proportions similar in your essences?

Vegetable glycerine is derived from coconut and is used as a water preservative but it doesn't last very long.

The only way to preserve the Mother Essence is by adding alcohol otherwise the water would go off.

The mother essence is 50% alcohol to 50% water.

If you then make a stock bottle from the Mother Essence, you add 2 drops of the Mother Essence to the stock bottle, fill with around 60% water and 40% alcohol.

Practitioner sets are stock essences, so that they are preserved for longer.

If I was making a dosage bottle, I would add x amount of drops of the stock bottle to dosage bottle and fill with around 20% alcohol, the rest water.

For animals and children I tend to add vegetable glycerine.

[pod]

In your opinion. What Chalice Well water has that distilled water doesn't have is spiritual energies.


Not forgetting the magnetic charge, iron and radioactivity. I'm confused as to your definition of 'pure.'

[BJ]

Vegetable glycerine is derived from coconut and is used as a water preservative but it doesn't last very long.

The only way to preserve the Mother Essence is by adding alcohol otherwise the water would go off.

The mother essence is 50% alcohol to 50% water.

If you then make a stock bottle from the Mother Essence, you add 2 drops of the Mother Essence to the stock bottle, fill with around 60% water and 40% alcohol.

Practitioner sets are stock essences, so that they are preserved for longer.

If I was making a dosage bottle, I would add x amount of drops of the stock bottle to dosage bottle and fill with around 20% alcohol, the rest water.

For animals and children I tend to add vegetable glycerine.

Thanks Unicorn. I appreciate a straight answer to a straight question

[kazschow]

In what way would water go off?

[Patience]

It can become contaminated by its container.

[Patience]

What Chalice Well water has that distilled water doesn't have is spiritual energies.
Exactly. It's a blank canvas, freer to absorb (for want of a better word) the energies you wish to add without risk of conflict.

[kazschow]

Is adding glycerine going to stop that? is the alcohol or glycerine not going to contaminate the essesnce? Bearing in mind alcohol cleans and disinfects things!!!

[Unicorn]

In what way would water go off?

It grows mould!

Although sometimes if I am treating myself and my animals and it is only for 3-4 weeks, I don't put anything in the water to preserve it, but keep it either in the fridge or somewhere cool and out of sunlight. The water is fine, but any longer without preservative and mould would begin to grow.

[kazschow]

It can become contaminated by its container. I thought glass was used so as not to contaminate anything!

[Unicorn]

Is adding glycerine going to stop that? is the alcohol or glycerine not going to contaminate the essesnce? Bearing in mind alcohol cleans and disinfects things!!!

No, the preservative used doesn't contaminate the essence, because the energetic signature of the essence is held in water, and the preservatives don't affect that.

[kazschow]

But what about the energy that's in the preservative, does it just disapaear? You said you add a number of things together to make a specific energy... so once you've doen this adding another element MUST change the energy range you've created, all be it by what ever degree. Glycerine is made from a coconut base, alcohol, fro seed or grape, these ust by the same theory have their own vibrational field.

[Unicorn]

But what about the energy that's in the preservative, does it just disapaear? You said you add a number of things together to make a specific energy... so once you've doen this adding another element MUST change the energy range you've created, all be it by what ever degree. Glycerine is made from a coconut base, alcohol, fro seed or grape, these ust by the same theory have their own vibrational field.

The vibration of the flower/tree/crystal is vibrating on a spiritual level. This is what is infused into the water. If we were just using the actual flower, root, we would be in the realms of herb tinctures where the physical parts of the flower/root would be used.

But beyond the physical level every living thing has a life force that is spiritual in nature, and is composed of energy. It is this 'energy' which does not reside on the physical that is present in an essence. Every living thing has another level of existence, and it is this level of existence that we communicate with, and from this place we can find out the healing properties of the living thing we are working with. There are more levels to a flower than we can see. We arrive at this further information by using other senses.

[Patience]

The vibration of the flower/tree/crystal is vibrating on a spiritual level. This is what is infused into the water.
So there's no actual physical change to the water, whether it's pure H2O or has other physical minerals in it?

[bluninja]

At what point does water lose it's memory? If water changes state to a gas and breaks it's bonds does it 'remember' what it has been in contact with?

If I split water into hydrogen and oxygen with electrolysis and then combust the gas to form water will it remember anything? I would have thought that 'created' water would be the purest form as it has not been in contact with anything before it became H2O.

While I'm thinking absurdities....couldn't someone working with essences set an intent to heal and create an essence to prevent tooth decay...then add it to the local water supply.....much safer than flouridation :)

Also with vibrational energy.......how is an essence stored so that it sin't affected by the vibration of other nearby energy (sympathetic vibaration, harmonics, destructive waveform)? How does one know when the vibration has become so attenuated that it can no longer do what it was intended for?

[Unicorn]

So there's no actual physical change to the water, whether it's pure H2O or has other physical minerals in it?

Not that can be measured at present.

[Unicorn]

While I'm thinking absurdities....couldn't someone working with essences set an intent to heal and create an essence to prevent tooth decay...then add it to the local water supply.....much safer than flouridation :)

Also with vibrational energy.......how is an essence stored so that it sin't affected by the vibration of other nearby energy (sympathetic vibaration, harmonics, destructive waveform)? How does one know when the vibration has become so attenuated that it can no longer do what it was intended for?

But you personally can set that intent bluninja. Energy follows thought.

The essence is stored in brown bottles and kept away from anything electrical, so not next to a phone or a microwave etc.

[bluninja]

I always considered thought was just a form of energy :)

Sorry, I know my questions are a little on the absurd side, but I wasn't talking specifically about background radiation, electromagnetic interference from household appliances or mains (as you keep saying this stuff is outside the normal plane), but the vibrational energies within the essences themselves.

You've described making essences by placing them near (not necessarily touching) the object that is donating it's specific vibration.....so how can those vibrations not interfere with other essences close by? If it is down to no intention being set to transfer; then how does the vibrational energy transfer inside a client unless there is a healer there to set the intent to transfer the healing energies into the clients body?

[Unicorn]

You've described making essences by placing them near (not necessarily touching) the object that is donating it's specific vibration.....so how can those vibrations not interfere with other essences close by? If it is down to no intention being set to transfer; then how does the vibrational energy transfer inside a client unless there is a healer there to set the intent to transfer the healing energies into the clients body?

Because nature is intelligent so as I set my intent, the plant is aware that only those energies are needed, and not the tree 100 yards away.

When I set out to make an essence my intent is that the essence help to heal people and or animals so the intent I set is of the highest vibration; that of love. Healing is intent + love = healing.

When the essence is inside the body, the vibration is somehow 'recognised' and will seek out that which is out of balance. As energy combines with energy it restores balance. The energy always seeks harmony and balance. It is intelligent enough to go where there is dis-harmony.

[Patience]

So you're saying "It just knows"?

[Unicorn]

What just knows?

[Patience]

What just knows?


When the essence is inside the body, the vibration is somehow 'recognised' and will seek out that which is out of balance.

The essential vibration 'just knows' what to seek out?

[smokeybear]

So we are back to "Belief" v "facts and scientific proof".

I believe that we are the descendants of giant mice; therefore because I believe, it is so.

[bluninja]

My belief is stronger than yours.....so it isn't so, unless I believe it is.

[Unicorn]

The essential vibration 'just knows' what to seek out?

Yes because it is is of the highest frequency and works by resonance, so when it encounters an energy that is lower/negative, it replaces it with harmonious energies.

[Unicorn]

So we are back to "Belief" v "facts and scientific proof".

I believe that we are the descendants of giant mice; therefore because I believe, it is so.

Belief coupled with experience. And in time when what we do can be measured; there will be some proof.

[Unicorn]

So we are back to "Belief" v "facts and scientific proof".

I believe that we are the descendants of giant mice; therefore because I believe, it is so.

Sorry, can you just remind everyone again who your homeopathic vet is???:)

[Patience]

Yes because it is is of the highest frequency and works by resonance, so when it encounters an energy that is lower/negative, it replaces it with harmonious energies.
Even if the ideal resonance/vibration of the individual (or part of the individual) is lower than that of the essence, it will be replaced?

[KateC]

Belief coupled with experience. And in time when what we do can be measured; there will be some proof.

So if what you can do can't be measured, why bother with the links to supposed positive tests that you posted?

[bluninja]

So if what you can do can't be measured, why bother with the links to supposed positive tests that you posted?

Unicorn has posted (many times) that the vibrational energies cannot be measured currently by science but can be sensed and understood by someone gifted and attuned to them. So though the energies themselves can't be measured then the effects of an intervention could be.

Imagine, if these vibrational energies existed and could be measured (and manipulated ). You stand in front of a 'vibrational mirror' each morning and it reflects back to you your state of health.....you then go the shower and the water is infused with healing energy based on your scan from the mirror so you get cleansed and healed at the same time. Cool :001_cool:

[Unicorn]

Even if the ideal resonance/vibration of the individual (or part of the individual) is lower than that of the essence, it will be replaced?

Yes, so take for example the essence of Larch which works with confidence issues. Larch holds the 'highest' vibration so when it comes into contact with someone that is lacking in confidence, the vibrations will be at odds with each other. The individual needs that quality, Larch has that quality in abundance so the higher vibration will bring harmony to that aspect of the individual; in this case to restore confidence.

[Unicorn]

So if what you can do can't be measured, why bother with the links to supposed positive tests that you posted?

The links I posted were for homeopathy for double blind trials which you were saying showed no results.

[Unicorn]

Unicorn has posted (many times) that the vibrational energies cannot be measured currently by science but can be sensed and understood by someone gifted and attuned to them. So though the energies themselves can't be measured then the effects of an intervention could be.

Imagine, if these vibrational energies existed and could be measured (and manipulated ). You stand in front of a 'vibrational mirror' each morning and it reflects back to you your state of health.....you then go the shower and the water is infused with healing energy based on your scan from the mirror so you get cleansed and healed at the same time. Cool :001_cool:

Spot on Bluninja.

I love the mirror visualisation. We already have coloured rays that are used in healing, as certain frequency of colours work with certain ailments. The possibilities are vast, but we have only just scratched the surface of vibrational medicine.

[bluninja]

Glad you liked the visualisation......the other one that popped into me head and I supressed was the airport cameras not just scanning body temperatures but vibrational energy levels and then stopping sick people getting into the country...the reason I stopped was that the next image was roaming NHS vehicles like the Google street view one identify sick people and dragging them off to be treated :)

[BJ]

So though the energies themselves can't be measured then the effects of an intervention could be.



That's where the whole thing comes unstuck really. In order to be "healing" or "medicine" there has to be an effect in the physical plane. We can't measure whether Unicorn's vibrations exist, but we could measure whether they "heal" or even "help".

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6WCT-45BBX3X-9&_user=10&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&_docanchor=&view=c&_searchStrId=977775031&_rerunOrigin=scholar.google&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=8c8ccee2dfccd9260ed3fc995b25bf21

[IJF]

Yes because it is is of the highest frequency

How do you know that it is always of the highest frequency?

and works by resonance,

Well resonance will only occur if the driving frequency is the same as the natural frequency of the water. This rather contradicts the previous comment abvout the essence having the highest frequency

so when it encounters an energy that is lower/negative, it replaces it with harmonious energies.

That is not the physics that I learned....

[Unicorn]

We know it is always of the highest frequency because we are accessing the 'life force' of the plant or tree or crystal.

Because we are working with very high energies that have extremely harmonious energies, when those energies work with us and our issues, they replace the negative emotions we are experiencing. They rise our vibrations.

[BJ]

That is not the physics that I learned....

It's vibration, Jim, but not as we know it.

[Unicorn]

How do flower essences work?
To understand how flower essences work requires a recognition that the human being is more than a physical body, but also incorporates a "body" of life energy, a "body" of sensitivity and feelings, and a spiritual essence or Self. Flower essences are energetic imprints of the life force of plants which interact with these subtle bodies of the human being, and evoke specific qualities within us. We can say that they work in a similar way to inspirational music or art, which carry meaning through the vehicle of sound or light, while the flower essences work through the medium of water.


Modern physics has known for nearly a century that matter and consciousness are intertwined. However, medical science still generally works with a nineteenth century model of the human being as a mechanism in a world of machines. We expect that in the coming century medical science will develop ways of studying the impact of consciousness on health, and we will learn more about the ways in which flower essences work. However, empirical research, which consists of the collection of case studies and practitioner reports, will remain the primary source of knowledge about how flower essences work.

[smokeybear]

Plus of course the well documented placebo effect present no matter what "treatment" is given, eg NHS, antibiotic, essence, homeopathy, or imagined