English Bull Terriers

[eeyore]

Anyone know where i can find out some good reliable information and advice about English Bull Terriers?

[krusewalker]

google.

KC has pages for every breed

so does wikipedia.

[kaida]

I find the most unbiased info is often on breed rescue websites. They don't just show the good side because they don't want to be cleaning up that mess later. Also, keep lurking on breed specific forums. That was how I found out that apparently in pretty much all UK lowchen lines there's aggression. On a thread on a lowchen forum a couple of breeders admitted to covering it up.

[Denisemcleod]

Having had one in class that has developed spinning - poor thing - beware of the predisposition as it is very hard to fix! cant write much - damaged right handand only got left hand to type with

[smokeybear]

No such thing as an English Bull Terrier!

http://www.thebullterrierclub.com/ (http://www.thebullterrierclub.com/)

http://www.bullterrierwelfare.org.uk/ (http://www.bullterrierwelfare.org.uk/)
I think you might find the "is a BT for you" pretty straight talking.

[eeyore]

thanks guys will look into all that :)

[Bullbreedcentral]

Try ann warwick at bullies in need. The best place for ebt info imho x

[AP]

I would agree with the welfare side of it, unlikely to be as biased as the breeders.

Overall treated correctly I think they are lovely. Seem to be far easier going with other dogs than many staffs (horrible generalisation there tbh). However they tend to be a little sharper in some ways, slightly higher prey drive and tend to be less human orientated.
The spinning behaviour is getting more common I think anyone know why?

Adam

[Denisemcleod]

The spinning behaviour is getting more common I think anyone know why?

Adam

Why do you say that? have you got some spinners? If so please tell me more as I need to do what I can for my spinner. Thanks.

[smokeybear]

I think if you talk to some breeders, many of the the pups from litters have to be raised almost separately (in some lines) as they can start fighting with their siblings at a very early age and/or their dams can attack them, which leads some individuals to develop behaviours to compensate for loneliness like zoo animals.

Shame

[Denisemcleod]

EEyore. If you are thinking of buying one I can point you in the direction of one breeder NOT to buy, where the breeder intends it seems, to continue to breed from a dam who spins and who produced at least two littermates who spin.

[Denisemcleod]

I think if you talk to some breeders, many of the the pups from litters have to be raised almost separately (in some lines) as they can start fighting with their siblings at a very early age and/or their dams can attack them, which leads some individuals to develop behaviours to compensate for loneliness like zoo animals.

Shame

I had heard that it is common for dams to attack pups, but never encountered it first hand. Certainly they appear very low sensitivity wise and have enordinatly higyh pain threshold. Are you thinking the spinning is the lonliness thing SX -its not in the case of my spinner, although to look at her spinning, you would certainly think it looks like a shed raised dog

[smokeybear]

No I don't think it is all to do with solitary confinement. I know lots of dogs that spin high drive GSD, collies etc (not all the time but as a default behaviour when confused or overstimulated).

It is a question of degree I guess, I do think there is a genetic component to this though, having seen dogs related to a particular animal that was a renowned spinner therefore it was not a learned behaviour (eg not puppies learning from dam)

[Denisemcleod]

No I don't think it is all to do with solitary confinement. I know lots of dogs that spin high drive GSD, collies etc (not all the time but as a default behaviour when confused or overstimulated).

It is a question of degree I guess, I do think there is a genetic component to this though, having seen dogs related to a particular animal that was a renowned spinner therefore it was not a learned behaviour (eg not puppies learning from dam)

The spinning this dog does, is unstopable, goes on untill the dog is exhausted or bleeding as really horrid to watch. Ive seen lots of dogs that spin periodically, but this one just bounces round and round and round and round relentlessly and seemingly unaware of much else. Horrid.

[AP]

Hi DM
I've had two more since your original thread about the ebt. This has led me to researching it some (which is depressing tbh).
The first isn't too bad, was kept in a flat (no exercise) until 9/10 months age then rescued by current person. Was spinning when they rescued him. It hasn't got worse since they had him but (until recently) not better either.
I've advised a lifestyle change for the dog. Increases exercise and dog interaction, lots more free running too. I've also advised they change him onto a very low energy (fat/oil) food. He was previously on a high energy young adult food. These changes seem to have helped on their own.
I have also developed a time out system for him were if he spins, they put him out of the room but with the lead shut in the door (so he can't spin) for a few minutes. This seems to be working.
The other dog is a bitch (yours is too isn't it?) and much worse, really goes for it and very hard to distract. Similar lifestyle/diet changes been made but not as effective as for the dog. Putting her out had a little effect but she would start soon after she was brought back in. Crateing her wasn't much good as she would spin in there (I suppose a smaller crate may have helped).
Seeing as it was so bad (this will now ruin the thread I guarante it) I used an e collar. I taught her to sit with it first (well she knew sit, I just enforced it) then once she was ok with this I used it when she spun. They are an insensitive breed and I believe when spinning in some sort of drive so her level was higher than normal, but she repsonded by stopping the spinning (about to sit) I then stopped the stim and made a huge fuss of her. I've repeated this several times and she is much better. I've also started adding the ''no'' to the spin/stim. Eventually that should stop her on her own and she should quit entirely (hopefully). I considered other approaches but considering the severity of the problem I decied not to mess around.

A couple of observations. Both dogs are single dogs. Both dogs are visually stimulated (lights on the floor ect). Both started young. I don't think they are related but who knows.
Whast I find interesting is the sudden increase in it (from one every 6 months or so, to 2 right together) also they are both ebts, in the past the spinners have been a mix of breeds. As a rule I think there are more ebts around than there used to be.
Its certainly a worrying condition that would put me off a ebt as it seems to be muh more severe in them than in other breeds (though staffs can be bad for it)

As to were it comes from? hard to say, maybe due to their fighting/baiting past they have an obsessive tendancy that directs onto themselves if under stimulated. Btw tug training has been good for both of them.

Good luck with your ebt.

Adam

[Denisemcleod]

Hi DM
I've had two more since your original thread about the ebt. This has led me to researching it some (which is depressing tbh).
The first isn't too bad, was kept in a flat (no exercise) until 9/10 months age then rescued by current person. Was spinning when they rescued him. It hasn't got worse since they had him but (until recently) not better either.
I've advised a lifestyle change for the dog. Increases exercise and dog interaction, lots more free running too. I've also advised they change him onto a very low energy (fat/oil) food. He was previously on a high energy young adult food. These changes seem to have helped on their own.
I have also developed a time out system for him were if he spins, they put him out of the room but with the lead shut in the door (so he can't spin) for a few minutes. This seems to be working.
The other dog is a bitch (yours is too isn't it?) and much worse, really goes for it and very hard to distract. Similar lifestyle/diet changes been made but not as effective as for the dog. Putting her out had a little effect but she would start soon after she was brought back in. Crateing her wasn't much good as she would spin in there (I suppose a smaller crate may have helped).
Seeing as it was so bad (this will now ruin the thread I guarante it) I used an e collar. I taught her to sit with it first (well she knew sit, I just enforced it) then once she was ok with this I used it when she spun. They are an insensitive breed and I believe when spinning in some sort of drive so her level was higher than normal, but she repsonded by stopping the spinning (about to sit) I then stopped the stim and made a huge fuss of her. I've repeated this several times and she is much better. I've also started adding the ''no'' to the spin/stim. Eventually that should stop her on her own and she should quit entirely (hopefully). I considered other approaches but considering the severity of the problem I decied not to mess around.

A couple of observations. Both dogs are single dogs. Both dogs are visually stimulated (lights on the floor ect). Both started young. I don't think they are related but who knows.
Whast I find interesting is the sudden increase in it (from one every 6 months or so, to 2 right together) also they are both ebts, in the past the spinners have been a mix of breeds. As a rule I think there are more ebts around than there used to be.
Its certainly a worrying condition that would put me off a ebt as it seems to be muh more severe in them than in other breeds (though staffs can be bad for it)

As to were it comes from? hard to say, maybe due to their fighting/baiting past they have an obsessive tendancy that directs onto themselves if under stimulated. Btw tug training has been good for both of them.

Good luck with your ebt.

Adam

Ok thanks for that Adam, thats useful. id be really interested in the pedigree's of these dogs if the owners wouldn't mind you passing them on?

AS it happens, an ecollar is something we have considered for this dog, but will only use as a last resort. So far we are mostly able to manage it. Cant write too much more as only have one hand and in a dash so left handed typing npt convenient. Be interested in progress reports on your EBTs though.

Its all rather sad. Oh and to save you wasting your time trying it, contacting the US reseaarch team is pointless - I think it has ceased.

[eeyore]

EEyore. If you are thinking of buying one I can point you in the direction of one breeder NOT to buy, where the breeder intends it seems, to continue to breed from a dam who spins and who produced at least two littermates who spin.


What a shame that these behaviours are being breed from.

we are not sure at the moment about getting one as i really want to know as much as poss, what we have seen of them we like but not many in our area.
many years ago when i was in school one got brought in for the class to see, i had never seen a dog like it before and was totally fasinated, it was a lovely friendly boy and i have had a soft spot for them for a while.
A lot is said about the breed not being good with other dogs, and all the dogs i have seen on rescue sites say not good with dogs or cats and small furries.
so its a shame but we may not get one.

[AP]

Hi DM
No chance of ped on the boy. I think he was backyard bred and didn't come with a ped for the first owner, if he did they have kept it so the new owner hasn't got it.
The girl maybe ped, I will ask and ask for any lines she is ect. I'm not hugely experienced with peds and so on, fairly simple isn't it?
Both are ok with other dog btw.

Others I have know have also had an obsessive quality, one was very light orientated (but no spinner) another was obsessive about certain chews (but not other food).

Adam